TeaForum.org

One often reads the suggestion, both from vendors and users alike, to use more porous, absorbing or muting (however we want to call it) clays for higher roasted teas. For example: Zini, Duanni, Jiangponi, Qinghuini, Chaozhou etc.

From my own experience with roasted teas and a variety of clays, I think this statement is incomplete.
It should read: absorbing clays are suitable for low-medium, low quality high roasted teas, or lower quality teas in general.

High quality roasted tea will not have any aspects that would need fading out. With premium teas every tiny layer counts and was expensive.
On the other hand, say a low quality high roast, like Seadyke or random Chinatown tea might benefit.

Thoughts?

If a tea does not have something that bothers a drinker, what is he aiming to tone down? I can understand the goal to mute a harsh characteristic that overpowers other flavors, but also worry about losing flavors that I like.
If a tea requires absolutely exact parameters, a specific water, and a specific pot.... to be okay, perhaps it is not worth the bother.
On the other hand some people enjoy the rigor: waters, teaware, & knowing what to match with what.

I prefer a lighter roast, I will always try a roasted tea out with a high fired clay, but if I find the roast overpowering, I will use a dark clay. Ive had plenty of teas that people here would call "high quality" that end up in my zini

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 3:25 pm

I prefer a lighter roast, I will always try a roasted tea out with a high fired clay, but if I find the roast overpowering, I will use a dark clay. Ive had plenty of teas that people here would call "high quality" that end up in my zini

Maybe those people did not have the „other“ high quality to compare with and realise that it was not?

Overpowering roast is one sign of not so high quality tea (or in some cases not properly rested).

For yancha, I personally prefer less porous clays like pre '77 F1 hongni or lao zhuni. If the roast is too strong, either it didn't rest long enough, or it was overfired (bad). I find overfired yancha quite off-putting, if I wanted a more affordable roasted tea I'd rather have some dark roast TGY.

Back to the question of porosity, if a tea is great when brewed in porcelain, then no need for a porous pot... but is high quality tea defined as tea that is great when brewed in porcelain? Perhaps a tea should be evaluated based on the brewing approach that brings out the best in it. Porous pots take away, but by taking away they can also give. Let's consider a tea that is a bit thin when brewed in porcelain. Pushing it more in porcelain might bring out bitterness. A porous pot might take away some of the bitterness making it possible to push the tea more and to make it thicker. At that point, it can start to become a matter of preference for flavor nuances vs thickness. However, this tradeoff applies more to sheng or dancong than to yancha. Really good yancha can be pushed hard without getting bitter, and I generally find that porous pots take away too much from it.

So I would not normally brew good yancha in a zini pot, unless 1) I really really wanted to make a chadan, 2) I didn't have a hongni/zhuni/porcelain pot with the appropriate size and pour speed. Without the right pot probably I'd rather not make a chadan and just brew it in a gaiwan.

Nice, nuanced reply. Makes sense, I did not think of that particular circumstance of a more lightly tasting tea!

steanze wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 8:26 pm

.

…. to the question of porosity, if a tea is great when brewed in porcelain, then no need for a porous pot... but is high quality tea defined as tea that is great when brewed in porcelain? Perhaps a tea should be evaluated based on the brewing approach that brings out the best in it. Porous pots take away, but by taking away they can also give. Let's consider a tea that is a bit thin when brewed in porcelain. Pushing it more in porcelain might bring out bitterness. A porous pot might take away some of the bitterness making it possible to push the tea more and to make it thicker. At that point, it can start to become a matter of preference for flavor nuances vs thickness. However, this tradeoff applies more to sheng or dancong than to yancha. Really good yancha can be pushed hard without getting bitter, and I generally find that porous pots take away too much from it.

Thanks for the wisdom & perspective, Steanze. Very helpful.

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 7:53 pm

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 3:25 pm

I prefer a lighter roast, I will always try a roasted tea out with a high fired clay, but if I find the roast overpowering, I will use a dark clay. Ive had plenty of teas that people here would call "high quality" that end up in my zini

Maybe those people did not have the „other“ high quality to compare with and realise that it was not?

Overpowering roast is one sign of not so high quality tea (or in some cases not properly rested).

How about chens heavy roast dong ding that everyone raves about? Thats considered high quality by all, right?

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 10:20 pm

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 7:53 pm

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 3:25 pm

I prefer a lighter roast, I will always try a roasted tea out with a high fired clay, but if I find the roast overpowering, I will use a dark clay. Ive had plenty of teas that people here would call "high quality" that end up in my zini

Maybe those people did not have the „other“ high quality to compare with and realise that it was not?

Overpowering roast is one sign of not so high quality tea (or in some cases not properly rested).

How about chens heavy roast dong ding that everyone raves about? Thats considered high quality by all, right?

I like chen's heavy roast dong ding. If rested 2-3 years it does well in hongni/porcelain for my preferences.

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 10:20 pm

How about chens heavy roast dong ding that everyone raves about? Thats considered high quality by all, right?

Good enough, yeah.

I do remember being disappointed when first ordering it a couple of years back. Then I asked someone about it. Turns out that same person had specifically ordered that batch to be high roasted for aging. So @steanze is right, this tea is meant to be aged and not consumed right away. My first buy is still unopened waiting for it. 3-5 years, after that it should develop its full potential.

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 11:15 pm

Brent D wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 10:20 pm

How about chens heavy roast dong ding that everyone raves about? Thats considered high quality by all, right?

Good enough, yeah.

I do remember being disappointed when first ordering it a couple of years back. Then I asked someone about it. Turns out that same person had specifically ordered that batch to be high roasted for aging. So steanze is right, this tea is meant to be aged and not consumed right away. My first buy is still unopened waiting for it. 3-5 years, after that it should develop its full potential.

Sure. You can age it.
Its also pretty good right now in a zini
Just my opinion

Brent D wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:07 am

Sure. You can age it.
Its also pretty good right now in a zini
Just my opinion

I would distinguish aging from resting. It can definitely be aged, but reven if one does not want to age it, I think the tea is at its best after a couple of years of resting. There are a lot of nuances that tend to be covered by the roast in the first year or so and emerge as the roast settles.

It is a bit like wines that after aging in oak barrels do well after some refinement in the bottle.

steanze wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:04 pm

I would distinguish aging from resting. It can definitely be aged, but reven if one does not want to age it, I think the tea is at its best after a couple of years of resting. There are a lot of nuances that tend to be covered by the roast in the first year or so and emerge as the roast settles.

I rest some high roasted oolong 12-24 months to settle charcoal notes. I found HY Chen’s ‘16/‘17 winter heavy roast DongDing was great straight away, but this last winter’s needed to rest, too fiery. A few high fire Tieguanyin I have are great after 3+years, while some 90’s aged wuyi oolong unfortunately lost flavor (not sure how they were stored before I got them as gifts).

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 3:29 am

.....: absorbing clays are suitable for low-medium, low quality high roasted teas, or lower quality teas in general.

Interesting topic. Lately I’ve been exploring porous clay kyusu with Japanese green’s, not roasted oolong though. With Japanese greens (that are high quality) my Shigaraki clay kyusu turn light and ephemeral steeps into richer brothier one’s. I would think that if the objective is to have a denser steep from a particular oolong using a more porous clay might achieve that end. I have a 70-80s Japan export houhin made of neiziwahong (qingshuini inside, with a coat of hongni outside) that does smooth out medium grade oolong, although I only used it for low roast high mountain, not high roasted.

With high roasted oolong I use clays that are not very porous; Hokujo Stoneware, Sou Yamada mayake Shigaraki, modern Zhuni, Hongni and QingShuiNi clay pots. Lately I’ve been using porcelain gaiwan more often when trying out new roasted oolong, it seems Hokujo stoneware isn’t always best with all roasted DongDing, not sure why that is. I’m still checking if it was the water I used, or the Hokujo kyusu that was the issue. It could be that a few need to be reset from daily roasted DD overuse for few years now.

Victoria wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:09 pm

Interesting topic. Lately I’ve been exploring porous clay kyusu with Japanese green’s, not roasted oolong though. With Japanese greens (that are high quality) my Shigaraki clay kyusu turn light and ephemeral steeps into richer brothier one’s. I would think that if the objective is to have a denser steep from a particular oolong using a more porous clay might achieve that end.

Yes you are right, I should revert to my original statement and exclude greener processed teas. Per my own experience I am finding slightly absorbing clays very helpful in creating a much more delicious brew with high mountain oolongs. More body and other qualities that I like in them. Like Duanni, Hokujo and Kobiwako.

Bok wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:22 pm

Yes you are right, I should revert to my original statement and exclude greener processed teas. Per my own experience I am finding slightly absorbing clays very helpful in creating a much more delicious brew with high mountain oolongs. More body and other qualities that I like in them. Like Duanni, Hokujo and Kobiwako.

Ha, I was just going to ask you about Kobiwako and which oolong you are pairing it with. So you have found best pairing is with low fired High Mountain? I haven’t received mine yet so can’t compare. Hokujo stoneware isn’t very porous, it’s a semi-vitreous dense high fired clay, although more porous than say zhuni .