For Shui Ping lovers with small pockets...

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steanze
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Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:44 pm

tingjunkie wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:33 am
If looking at teapots as tools for brewing, rather than for their collector/resale value, I think Factory pots are largely over-hyped. I have several modern pots from private studios that tend to outperform my F1 and F2 teapots. I'm not talking very expensive pots either, but pots I've paid $30-$150 for in the past 10 years. I actually just bought a nice pin zi ni pot from eBay for $80 including shipping from Taiwan that I can already tell is a serious performer. It's all about handling a bunch of clay until you can recognize the good from the bad- and even then you still have to get lucky too.
In my experience F2 pots are usually not great in terms of clay quality. F1 pots before green label are in a different league from most modern pots, unless we are talking about modern pots made by masters who have access to great clay. If we are talking about F1 pots from the 90s then I'd agree with you - it depends a bit on the pot. I think the main problem with F1 hype is that in the west it extends to all F1 pots, but actually 90s F1 pots are hit or miss. The 70s and 60s F1 pots are a different thing though, the clay quality is much better.
tingjunkie wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:33 am
I fully admit my Yixing knowledge is only a fraction of some tea lovers out there, but my theory is this: with the exception of masters and artisans that had the freedom to take pride in their work, the Factories were mostly full of teapot makers who just had to hit their quotas using whatever clay they were told to use. Hence the very wide range of craftsmanship seen. Private studios could choose to take more pride in their clay and craftsmanship in order to build a following and make sales. Then of course there were private factories churning out their endless quota of total mass-produced crap or fake pots, too.
That's true that teapot makers in the factories had to use whatever clay they were told to use. It is also true that many of them were not particularly refined masters. However, the clay they were told to use in the 60s and 70s was really good. As the market opened up in the 80s, demand increased, and it continued to increase with China's economic growth. With an increase in demand, the quality of the clay used to make pot for regular use declined. There are still modern pots with very good clay, but they are either by famous masters or by their students who inherited the clay, or sometimes by former F1 workers. Other modern pots can be alright but do not come close to the quality of the clay of 60s and 70s F1 pots in my experience.
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ShuShu
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Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:28 pm

steanze wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:44 pm

In my experience F2 pots are usually not great in terms of clay quality. F1 pots before green label are in a different league from most modern pots, unless we are talking about modern pots made by masters who have access to great clay. If we are talking about F1 pots from the 90s then I'd agree with you - it depends a bit on the pot. I think the main problem with F1 hype is that in the west it extends to all F1 pots, but actually 90s F1 pots are hit or miss. The 70s and 60s F1 pots are a different thing though, the clay quality is much better.
As far as my limited experience goes, I think that there is an important difference between red and brown clay. 80s-90s red clay might be significantly worse than 70s but im not sure that this is the case with brown/purple clay. Some 80s-90s zinis can be really good (I dont really know why and would be happy to hear ).

Second, I think that part of what TJ was trying to say is that a significant improvement in clay quality doesn't necessarily suggest a significant improvement in performance. I'm inclined to agree with this claim. In my view, and with respect to the teas that I drink, I think that when you move from early 80s to early 70s you a pay a LOT but gain relatively little in term of performance (gaoshan is a notable exception)
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tingjunkie
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:24 am

ShuShu wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:28 pm
Second, I think that part of what TJ was trying to say is that a significant improvement in clay quality doesn't necessarily suggest a significant improvement in performance. I'm inclined to agree with this claim. In my view, and with respect to the teas that I drink, I think that when you move from early 80s to early 70s you a pay a LOT but gain relatively little in term of performance (gaoshan is a notable exception)

Actually, it's my opinion/experience that clay quality and firing level are everything, HOWEVER there seems to have been some pretty excellent clay used in the 90's/early 2000's for commercial grade pots outside of the official Factories. I might even dare to say that a few post-Factory commercial grade pots have better clay than many Factory pots from the 70's onward because it was stored and fermented longer before being used. Granted, my experience is with 70's F1 and later, as I don't own any 1950's -60's teapots. As far as Green Label F1, I have owned: high fired hong ni, lower fired hong ni, medium fired NZWH, and now high fired QSN. All of my Green Label pots have been good to excellent, but certainly not any better than a select few of the non-Factory 90's/00's pots I own. Either my tastes are not developed enough to truly appreciate the subtle qualities of 70's Factory clay (certainly possible), or it's just significantly overhyped. I tend to lean towards the latter.

Having said all that, is buying a Factory pot from a reliable vendor a much safer bet than buying modern pots? Hell yes! Without a doubt. But I don't think that necessarily makes them superior to some post-Factory commercial pots.
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Bok
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:30 am

I think we are mostly in agreement: anything before green label is highly likely better, younger factory might but not necessarily is.

I also have one especially good performing 90s pot, but from one of the better artists and with better clay it seems to me.

It is the only young Yixing pot left in my collection, got rid of the rest...
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tingjunkie
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:43 am

Here's a good example... I bought this 90ml duo qiu from Jing Tea Shop back around 2011. I think they claimed it was from the 90's. This photo was taken back when the pot was mostly unused, but if it was daylight, I'd post an updated pic for comparison and you would see that this thing glows! In comparing this pot to the 70's Green Label QSN pot I just bought, I'd take this over the F1 every time. The way it protects high notes while adding more body and smoother mouthfeel is really amazing. Not to mention the craftsmanship blows the F1 out of the water completely. Sure, part of the difference is that the pot has been seasoned longer, but... in my experience, some pots are just outstanding performers from the get-go and only get even better with time. Jing used to carry some really killer pots 7+ years ago.
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Bok
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:58 am

@tingjunkie funny you say that, my 90s also glows - with certain teas only. That is where pot/tea affinity come into play...
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tingjunkie
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:01 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:58 am
tingjunkie funny you say that, my 90s also glows - with certain teas only. That is where pot/tea affinity come into play...
Yes, proper pairing makes all the difference. Maybe I just haven't found the right pairing for my new Green Label QSN pot yet.
theredbaron
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:18 am

tingjunkie wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:01 am


Yes, proper pairing makes all the difference. Maybe I just haven't found the right pairing for my new Green Label QSN pot yet.
Did you try Liu Bao?
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steanze
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:45 am

tingjunkie wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:43 am
Here's a good example... I bought this 90ml duo qiu from Jing Tea Shop back around 2011. I think they claimed it was from the 90's. This photo was taken back when the pot was mostly unused, but if it was daylight, I'd post an updated pic for comparison and you would see that this thing glows! In comparing this pot to the 70's Green Label QSN pot I just bought, I'd take this over the F1 every time. The way it protects high notes while adding more body and smoother mouthfeel is really amazing. Not to mention the craftsmanship blows the F1 out of the water completely. Sure, part of the difference is that the pot has been seasoned longer, but... in my experience, some pots are just outstanding performers from the get-go and only get even better with time. Jing used to carry some really killer pots 7+ years ago.
The clay of that pot does look good, personally I would prefer a 70s F1 qingshuini though... Perhaps you prefer clay with a finer grain? 70s qingshuini was usually processed to have a coarser grain on small pots. Some of the larger qingshuini pots, and the early 70s jiazinis, used clay processed to a finer grain. F1 workmanship in green label is indeed a bit sloppy, those pots are known for the clay, not for the workmanship. In the 1960s and early 70s the workmanship is better, but that does not necessarily have an impact on tea, unless you are brewing dancong or gaoshan and need a thin-walled hongni pot. Good workmanship does make pots more enjoyable to use.

Comparing the workmanship of a 90s or later to a 70s pot is not entirely fair. In the 70s, pots are fired only once in a heavy oil kiln. After the 1990s pots are fired twice in a gas kiln. After the first firing, the lid is sanded to match the body perfectly, and the pot is refired. With the techniques of the late 90s-2000s, almost every artisan could make a nicely symmetrical pot with a lid that fits well. Multiple firings can reduce the porosity of the clay
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1212000231). So it makes sense that you mention that the pot protects high notes, but I'm not sure that it is because of clay quality. I expect it will round the tea less too. Regardless of why that happens, it could be a good property depending on the tea you need to brew and the results you are looking for.

I think Jing's pots were very good in the context of what was available in the west at the time... but in the context of what is available in Asia they do not stand out much. I think they brew good tea, but in retrospect they were a bit overpriced: in the right place 10 years ago one could get a Qing lao zhuni for around $400. Still they are good enough that one can continue to use them and enjoy them, so that makes them far better than many of the other offerings that were around, that one would stop using after learning a bit more.
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tingjunkie
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Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:53 pm

Let's not discuss what prices were 10+ years ago. It will just make us all sad. :lol:
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tingjunkie
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Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:18 am

FWIW, this is the QSN I just bought from Emmett. Definitely a very nice pot.

Image
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tingjunkie
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Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:46 am

theredbaron wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:18 am
Did you try Liu Bao?
Not yet, though I have a couple good liu bao/hei cha pots already. So far I've tried some high-fire yancha, and some 12 year old Yiwu. You'd think this screams to be a yancha pot, but the first test wasn't as great as I expected. Did better with the Yiwu, but still didn't feel like a perfect match.
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Bok
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Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:05 am

tingjunkie wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:46 am
Not yet, though I have a couple good liu bao/hei cha pots already. So far I've tried some high-fire yancha, and some 12 year old Yiwu. You'd think this screams to be a yancha pot, but the first test wasn't as great as I expected. Did better with the Yiwu, but still didn't feel like a perfect match.
Bare in mind that older pots might need some time to get seasoned before they perform at peak. finding the perfect match using an unused pot for a few times only is bound to disappoint.

Shape is not really flat, compared to a Biandeng shape, which might be a better fit (shape-wise) for Yancha.
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tingjunkie
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Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:39 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:05 am
Bare in mind that older pots might need some time to get seasoned before they perform at peak. finding the perfect match using an unused pot for a few times only is bound to disappoint.
Of course, more seasoning equals better results. However, I have personally found that when you get tea and pot pairing right, the results are fairly evident immediately. The more pots that I handle and test out, the more I tend to trust the smell from the under side of the lid. When the pairing is right, the lid aroma reflects back a deep, rich palette of notes, and tends to also smell sweet. It makes you want to keep smelling and diving deeper in to the scent. When the pairing is less than optimal, the lid smells faint and boring, and lacks sweetness. What has surprised me the most about this observation, however, is that I would of thought all high fired pots (especially hongni and zhuni) would always reflect the tea's aromas better than medium fired pots. That hasn't been my experience though. Sometimes a medium fired and porous/sandy clay will reflect aromas more deeply than even a gaiwan lid, if the pairing is right. Just my 2 cents though, your mileage may vary.
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Bok
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Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:03 am

tingjunkie wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:39 am
What has surprised me the most about this observation, however, is that I would of thought all high fired pots (especially hongni and zhuni) would always reflect the tea's aromas better than medium fired pots. That hasn't been my experience though. Sometimes a medium fired and porous/sandy clay will reflect aromas more deeply than even a gaiwan lid, if the pairing is right. Just my 2 cents though, your mileage may vary.
I do the same with the lid! Great minds think alike I guess... :mrgreen:

Your observations confirms that nothing is for sure in the world of Yixing... which makes it fun and frustrating at the same time. I have had quite a few common "Yixing-rules" contradicted by individual pots. It gets even messier with the older pots, as nothing is for sure there in terms of how they will behave/misbehave.

As for Hongni, I found for my pots that hongni needs a bit of time to reach its best. With so many hundreds of teas it can be difficult to find a good match quickly. For now I am content to have a suberbly functioning pot for each of my staple teas, the rest is experimentation and hit and miss...
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