Chaozhou/Shantou

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chadao
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Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 pm

wave_code wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:01 pm
also factor in shipping (which can be kinda all over the place depending on the vendor/platform) and also that once the thing shows up it isn't broken and/or that you actually got what you ordered or that the particular piece you get isn't totally messed up I can understand having a pretty healthy mark-up, but this does still seem high to me. but I don't know what standard mark-ups here are. I am guessing like any other area though mark-up margins on cheaper produced products are high while those on more artisan and specialty products are low to sometimes almost non-existent and one has to compensate the other.

if you find the two totally identical though thats one thing. although at least from what I can tell from images a lot of other vendors are having around the same mark-up on other CZ pots. how do you find their actual effect on tea? Maybe its not necessarily bad clay even if it isn't the same as original older CZ zhuni or doesn't have a drastic/positive effect on the tea, as long as it isn't harmful or isn't making it worse. can you see throwing marks on the inside of both of them, or are they maybe some sort of slipcast?

looking around there seems to be the $10-20ish pots, then the more $80-120ish range which look much better in terms of both clay/craftsmanship and at least to me, aesthetically, then beyond that it can keep going but at some point maybe you are overpaying. I don't know if its the same artist or not so I don't want to say anything definitive, but I was for example quoted a price that was almost double that of a very similar looking CZ pot on Taobao from a different vendor... though when using a good or rare clay I can see this scaling prices very fast - the amount of clay used to make a 80ml pot vs 160ml pot is going to add up quickly I imagine.
From everything I've read, CZ clay is highly variable in its appearance and it's hard to say if anything is "original older CZ clay", even the older pots. The cost of clay in the cost of a pot is generally the smallest part of the cost - so an 80ml to 160ml change really may not drastically impact the cost due to the clay alone. It's the potter's skill and time you're paying for.

I've found that both my CZ pots that I ordered from both Tea Habitat and Taobao and look identical perform well with dancongs. I am still seeking out a higher quality, perhaps older, CZ pot to compare.

In my experience, the pots make tea. There is a slight change comparing to a porcelain gaiwan, with some muting and rounding of the taste, but hard to say how much. It's still good tea.
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Balthazar
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Sun May 16, 2021 1:05 pm

chadao wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 pm
From everything I've read, CZ clay is highly variable in its appearance and it's hard to say if anything is "original older CZ clay", even the older pots.
... so I came across a listing on one of those pot auction groups today. It's supposedly an 80s "汕頭壺". I.e. Shantou pot.

What caught my attention was the color. The only CZ pot I have is a modern one with in a matte orange/red. This one is a blackish gray (light on photos might be skewing things a bit). From what I've heard from @Bok and others, this would suggest that the pot is not made from local clay. Or is there a distinction between Chaozhou and Shantou in terms of clay?

To comply with the "don't post pictures of pots you do not own rule", I copied a very small section of a picture and duplicated it across an empty canvas. First image is from the underside/bottom, second from the top (lighing is different in the original photos, so the color difference between the two appears much more dramatic than it probably is in real life).


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wave_code
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Sun May 16, 2021 1:42 pm

I've seen a few vintage ones that looked like they were reduction fired - maybe that is the case here? most of them I've seen also had enamel work like flowers painted on them.
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Bok
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Sun May 16, 2021 6:33 pm

wave_code wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 1:42 pm
I've seen a few vintage ones that looked like they were reduction fired - maybe that is the case here? most of them I've seen also had enamel work like flowers painted on them.
Reduction fired exists and also brown glaze, inside would be still orange then. Grey sounds like reduction fired.
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Balthazar
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Mon May 17, 2021 4:13 am

Thanks! Reduction fired seems like the likely answer then.
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Bok
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Mon May 17, 2021 5:25 am

I’ve heard of vintage/old reduction fired, but so far I’ve only seen it in modern ones.
maple
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Wed May 19, 2021 2:38 am

Bok wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 5:25 am
I’ve heard of vintage/old reduction fired, but so far I’ve only seen it in modern ones.

Like this ?
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* I can post it, because it's in my hand :ppppp

if so, it's secondary fire with ash. Learned from senior guys, it's 覆灰燒。

And you can see the original clay color in the bottom.
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LeoFox
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Wed May 19, 2021 10:57 am

@maple wow!!!
TeaHead
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:37 am

Was sold this pot as a Yixing Qing antique.

Bok’s keen eye was quick in spotting it’s actually a CZ pot.

Do you guys think it’s an antique or a vintage?
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Bok
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:13 am

@TeaHead you already know my opinion, but for the benefit of everyone: while notoriously difficult to date and with almost no information available, I am inclined to think that this pot is antique rather than vintage. It’s not modern that I’m pretty sure about.

In any case it’s lovely and well a few notches above the usual clumsy Chaozhou wares. Congratulations, it’s one lucky draw, rare to find nice pieces such as these and with a pretty good possibility in my eyes to be antique.
maple
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:41 am

@Bok

Let me show off the knowledge you won't know. :lol: :lol:
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寒山半出"白"雲中。白 = white - this poetry describe the view once we brewing. (the steam = cloud)
白雲深處有人家 ? ? I think it just a popular and well know.

check the calligraphy of 白. All of I've seen antique CZ is using this 白 but not normal 白
Another reason is the clay, it looks like late 80~90 for me (But i'm not sure).

@TeaHead
I vote for 80'~90' but there's no system in CZ. I think no one can give solid answer for it. it's still a nice pot with good curve.

*upload photo from google to imgur
Last edited by maple on Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LeoFox
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:44 pm

maple wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:41 am
Bok

Let me show off the knowledge you won't know. :lol: :lol:
Image


寒山半出"白"雲中。白 = white - this poetry describe the view once we brewing. (the steam = cloud)
白雲深處有人家 ? ? I think it just a popular and well know.

check the calligraphy of 白. All of I've seen antique CZ is using this 白 but not normal 白
Another reason is the clay, it looks like late 80~90 for me (But i'm not sure).

TeaHead
I vote for 80'~90' but there's no system in CZ. I think no one can give solid answer for it. it's still a nice pot with good curve.
There's a nice maple in the next line of the poem
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Bok
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:16 pm

@maple for sure these intricacies in the characters are beyond my abilities to find out haha! Thanks!
Chadrinkincat
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:52 pm

Bok wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:13 am
TeaHead you already know my opinion, but for the benefit of everyone: while notoriously difficult to date and with almost no information available, I am inclined to think that this pot is antique rather than vintage. It’s not modern that I’m pretty sure about.

In any case it’s lovely and well a few notches above the usual clumsy Chaozhou wares. Congratulations, it’s one lucky draw, rare to find nice pieces such as these and with a pretty good possibility in my eyes to be antique.
I would’ve guess this one was more modern. These CZ pot do seem harder to date than yixing though.

Nicer than the run of the mill antique ones like this one.
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Bok
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Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:22 pm

@Chadrinkincat indeed, super difficult… it’s like a gigantic puzzle with 80% of the pieces missing.

The high quality ones can be really nice though, but they are unicorns.
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