testing the waters in clay (seeking advice)

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wave_code
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:04 pm

First post, and looking for a bit of advice here that borders on the more general and budget conscious...

My main daily brewing tool is an inexpensive and ugly but totally effective porcelain gaiwan for most teas, but I'm looking to dip into clay...
I started years ago mostly drinking green tea but find these days I mostly drink shu with a growing interest in liu bao, liu an, and other hei cha. So my reason for getting interest in clay is both because of the potential for taming less desirable storage characteristics, highlighting some desirable traits too hopefully, as well as heat retention (and to be totally honest, less burning of the finger tips). Also unless people have tips of vendors I don't already know I have found that nice porcelain pots in smaller sizes seem much harder to come across than clay - I mostly drink on my own, sometimes with one or maybe two other people so looking for the 70-100ml range in size.

I don't really have the budget for vintage pots, and as much as I admire them they don't seem worth it to me at this point. Both because I don't know enough about different clays to ensure I get the desired effect for certain teas, as well as that I don't think I'm drinking teas that warrant them often enough at this point. So I'm looking to start off with something reasonable in price. I have had my eye on some of the Taiwanese Tea Crafts pots as they (claim at least) good quality clay with red and purple clay options. For example- https://www.taiwanteacrafts.com/product ... lay-teapot . Has anyone tried their pots? Thoughts? I am of course not expecting miracles but am curious if anyone with more experience has opinions on them. They seem like quite a decent budget option since I don't recall seeing anything close in price, at least that I trust not to be potentially dirty or bad clay (thinking the $20 chinatown "yixing" pots here). I also like that they come in 80ml sizes for some shapes.

I would probably spring for something a bit nicer if I could afford it, but I should also admit I'm trying to remain a bit high end vintage clay skeptical here too until I have more experience myself. I imagine I would see diminishing returns pretty quickly nor do I feel the need to use a Factory 1 pot for drinking mid-price Liu Bao on most days. And while I believe there IS an effect on taste (or I wouldn't be interested) and am sure different clay grades and quality do count I get a bit of a reminder of the old audiophile problem where some people convince themselves something sounds better just because it is more expensive or of particular provenance.

Aside from the Taiwan Tea Crafts pots are there any other more budget priced clay options I should look into or consider? I have also noticed that Japanese unglazed clay seems a bit easier to come across in lower price ranges and am wondering if I should consider that as an option as well. Somehow I trust some of the lower priced Japanese clays more because they come from vendors I trust and it seems to me that regulations around things like organic testing/consumer safety/general scrupulous business is a bit tighter in Japan. Downside I see being that those pots are made with possibly quite different desirable characteristics in mind.
.m.
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:56 pm

The TTC teapots look very nice (plus there is a 20% sale for the next few days), and i'd say they could be a good choice where to start.
Another interesting option might be the little banko kyusu offered here viewtopic.php?f=28&t=685
And there's been a decent looking little 70ml dark zini yixing shuiping offered on the facebook "Gong Fu Cha Group" for $40 that might perhaps be interesting for you too (i dont want to put links here, but it is a "teaware tuesday" post from 13/11/2018, and i think it is a good deal).

Also, I'd recommend experimenting with different kinds of water. Water really can make or break the tea. Cheers.
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OCTO
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:00 pm

@wave_code , welcome to the forum and welcome to the dark side! 😂😂😂

Considering the fact that you have been brewing and training your taste buds with a GaiWan, venturing into a budget Yixing pot might be a challenge. You need to be prepared to stretch your patience and invest in more tea and time.

Here’s the reason why...

1. A porcelain GaiWan gives you 100% flavor output. You get what you put in. GIGO.

2. Any clay teapot will at initial stage, absorb... flavor, aroma, astringency, mouthfeel.... be prepared.

3. A better grade porcelain GaiWan will round off the edges that are rough while maintaining the rest of the flavor profile.

4. An unused and unseasoned Yixing will need to be seasoned and “fed” with tea for a period of time before it will start enhancing tea.

Your observation and analogy of PseudoAcoustic is very real. From an audiophile to another, as long as you’re conscious about the possibility of pseudoacoustic, you’re safer than others. Same applies to teapots!

@.m. Also said it well regarding water... explore with water... H2O. It’s worth every drop! Hahahahaha....

My 2cents!!

Cheers!!
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ShuShu
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:09 pm

LiuBao and Shou are not very demanding in terms of the quality of clay necessary to brew a good cup of tea, just make sure its purple/brown clay rather than red. As for source, I'm not familier with the quality of TTC's pots, I do know that the ebay seller lukevecent sells decent and rather cheap starter pots. http://myworld.ebay.com/lukevecent/
Chadrinkincat
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:29 pm

Those pots from TTC are made in Taiwan from non yixing clay hence lower price than typical true yixing. Imho that clay looks pretty mediocre. Your better off spending that $30-50 on a used pot from this forum or teachat.
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Bok
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Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:58 pm

Bare in mind that the TTC pots' clay has nothing to do with Yixing clay, they just look similar. So as to what properties they have is a wild guess. Likely similar to fake Yixings from China in material, some sort of generic clay blend. Price is good and quality looks decent though.

When you say you do not want to spend much, that is relative. Under 100$? It is possible to find decent Yixing for around a 100$, even vintage. All depends on what is cheap for you in that context.

Japanese clays can be tricky as well, as the teas that are commonly brewed in them have different requirements to the ones that you like. Lower temperatures result in designs that are sometimes not suitable for other teas. Japanese health safety standards are actually a lot less strict than the Chinese and even Taiwanese. Difference is that whatever they are they are followed more strictly in Japan.

Difficult subject all in all, so you are right to thread carefully before you jump in...
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wave_code
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Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:08 am

Thanks for all the advice so far. I should look closer at used options, although often times even used (good) pot prices are more than I would probably have to spend- I think for now I'm looking around the 50 euros maximum which is a bit of a shame as I get the feeling 100 gets you a lifetime worthy pot if you choose wisely. I do still wonder if it is better to hold off altogether and instead go for either a glazed option or hunt for some nicer porcelain, both of which seem to have more low budget options. As OCTO points out there is also the appeal to me of tasting the tea cleanly and keeping it "as is" - if there are some off notes then either the tea needs to rest/air out a bit longer or it is what it is. Also a very good point regarding water- I'm trying to get some activated charcoal so I can start treating and filtering my water a bit before going for a super expensive pot because we have VERY high amounts of limestone in the water where I am living right now - I have to scrub my boiler out weekly to keep it from building up and even then it is near impossible. I wouldn't want to have that kind of build up happen on a nice vintage pot.

As for the TTC pots I'm aware they aren't yixing and don't expect them to behave like a F1, just traditional shapes and that is fine with me as an entry point- after all I don't know if I necessarily want yixing or another type of clay at this point. Maybe worth taking a chance while a sale is on.

ShuShu- I'm curious what is it about purple/brown clay you find more favorable to liu bao than red?

I suppose I do have some clay experience already, but it is very limited- I have a small mesh strainer banko kyusu which I use for kyobancha for evening tea and a small thin walled brown clay pot I use for red tea, but it is nothing special and I picked it up more because I loved the shape than anything else. I tried making red tea in the banko once or twice just for trying it out but it didn't have a noticeable effect from the clay, but it doesn't seem nearly as porous as most Chinese clays and would need major seasoning. The shape did help though as it was very big leaves and they were able to expand much better in there flatter/wider shape pot. I also have one of the Dehua stoneware pots Jay sells at TeaLifeHK which I really like for oolongs, but its a bit big for me for solo drinking teas that can just keep going and going. I tend to use it when brewing for multiple people or for travel since it is very sturdy and not so expensive.

I'm also curious about non-Chinese clay options like European potters such as Petr Novak, Jiri Duchek, Andrzej Bero, so on. I understand a lot of them tend to favor high iron clays and most people seem to use their pots for pu, so I figure they should be decent options for shu or liu bao pots, but again something very different from a Chinese pot. Not exactly budget, but there is also the Hojo option, some of which look very well crafted and to be of more porous clay, but again as a semi-skeptic there are some claims on that site that are totally dubious to me, or even if they were chemically true/possible I'm not confident 99% of people would be capable of tasting said effects.
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ShuShu
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Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:38 am

wave_code wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:08 am
ShuShu- I'm curious what is it about purple/brown clay you find more favorable to liu bao than red?
In short, purple/brown clay is just more porous or breathing than red clay and makes the water softer, rounder, and emphasizes the body. This effect is especially desirable with fermented teas, in my view (though I believe that this is close to a consensus among many tea drinkers). It rounds out unpleasant high notes that fermented teas usually have and give a strong and smooth body.
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Baisao
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Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:23 pm

Generally speaking, handmade Taiwanese teapots are a good bargain. You might look at Emilio del Pozo’s pots here: https://thejadeleaf.com. Heicha is pretty forgiving and pots like these may be just the ticket. There are many, many teapot makers in Taiwan who make teapots that put Yixing craftsmanship to shame but you likely won’t find them on Western-facing tea shops, so you’ll have to do some digging.

I was fortunate enough to get into this when there was still a reasonable expectation of acquiring good Yixing teapots without breaking the bank. Certainly, this was still more than 50 euro but 100 euro could get you a quality teapot. I think you would have to pay several times that today, but I admit that I haven’t been in the market for post-2000 Yixing in years.

My point is this: I would avoid Yixing if I was starting off today on a reasonable budget. You have to contend with bad clays, poor craftsmanship at premium prices, for affects on tea that are more likely to be negative than positive.

Regarding your doubts about highend clays and analogizing this with high end audio, I’ll say this: it’s an apt enough analogy as far as diminishing returns go, but unlike a lot of hi-fi where the affect is imaginary, there are real positive/negative affects of clay onto tea. Are you sensitive enough to appreciate these differences? It is an expensive question to answer.
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Bok
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Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:54 pm

wave_code wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:04 pm
Somehow I trust some of the lower priced Japanese clays more because they come from vendors I trust and it seems to me that regulations around things like organic testing/consumer safety/general scrupulous business is a bit tighter in Japan.
For your safety concerns, Taiwanese teaware further fits the bill, generally pretty safe and I have not heard of any issues with toxic materials. The wood-fired stuff which is popular in Taiwan is pretty good for a wide range of teas. Sometimes other clay is used, which can then have undesirable characteristics. So in your case, Taiwanese teaware yes, but better the wood-fired variety.

The Jade leaf has both, but I think wood-fire are are sold out at the moment. I was going to recommend my friend Peter from Daqian (https://daqian.myshopify.com/), but their prices have gone up and do not fit your budget I am afraid... better made pots though and Western facing shop. They have a small following in the US, Global Tea Hut uses a lot of their teaware.
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Bok
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Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:33 pm

wave_code wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:08 am
I think for now I'm looking around the 50 euros maximum which is a bit of a shame as I get the feeling 100 gets you a lifetime worthy pot if you choose wisely.
In this case I would advise to not buy anything, put the money in a jar, save up and browse and learn more. Buy something nice when you have a good budget. It seems to me that you are an inquisitive mind and this won't be the end of your journey in the world of tea.

Otherwise you will just amass cheap pots which you will find inadequate further down the road. And then the money spent for those is lost.

The difference in porcelain is not so huge to justify investing more in it... and as I recently learned, sometimes the cheapest is actually the best :mrgreen:
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