ID help... Guihuasha clay

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Baisao
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Tue May 29, 2018 12:11 am

Bok wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:55 am
So, after finally getting my hands on some Percarbonate, which was not so easy in Taiwan...
Sodium percarbonate is the active ingredient in OxyClean so it would work well on cloths.

I have heard of cleaning tablets sold in Taiwan that contain sodium percarbonate. I know they are out there but don’t know of a brand name.
Bok wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:55 am
Makes me wonder if that is the reason there are so many unused vintage pots out there...
Truly vintage pots can be made to look pristine with sodium percarbonate for stains and ascorbic acid for scale.

I just cleaned three well-seasoned F1s from the late 60s (two hongni and one zini) and they look immaculate now, like they left the factory yesterday. I did use ascorbic acid on one because of lime scale.

After treatment with sodium percarbonate or ascorbic acid, I soak pots in water for several days, refreshing the water each day.

Some new pots and clay kettles will have a raw smell to them. This is where pre-seasoning with tea will help. I have never needed it with pots that were reset, just new pots.
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Bok
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:57 am

So after finally getting it spot- and odorless, I started seeing how it performs.

Given the seemingly high porosity, I tried with some Dongding style Oolong I have been drinking for at least 7 years, so which I am intimately familiar with.

Surprisingly it came out bitter! Something I did absolutely not expect. Very unpleasant taste I never had with this tea. When I took out the leaves part of the mystery unraveled: the bottom leaves had been cooked, so the pot is retaining too much heat. Probably due to the larger volume. The walls are not too thick and the pot is rather light. Need to work on the brew times if I want to use it for these teas.

Pours really fast and beautifully though!

Second tea I tried after this experience was the HK Three Stamp Shuixian. That tea fared a lot better, lost some of its original dustiness and became much cleaner tasting. Very different profile, still testing if I like it better than in a more neutral pot.

So all in all the muting factors from the porous clay might be upended by its volume and resulting heat retention properties.
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steanze
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:05 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:57 am
So all in all the muting factors from the porous clay might be upended by its volume and resulting heat retention properties.
Yes, multiple dimensions contribute to the performance of a pot and size/heat retention is an important one. People should not evaluate a pot only based on clay. Clay, firing temperature, pour speed, size, wall thickness are all important. Here is another example. Consider a pot that is made of lao zhuni (great clay for yancha), but with very slow pour. That would make it unusable for yancha, despite the clay is good.

I would suggest aged sheng for your pot, as I tend to prefer yancha brewed with a high leaf to water ratio in small pots :)
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Bok
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:01 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:05 am

I would suggest aged sheng for your pot, as I tend to prefer yancha brewed with a high leaf to water ratio in small pots :)
Yes it would hurt the wallet a bit too much to do that often. In this case the tea was not too pricey so I could afford the experiment. You never know when you need to brew expensive yancha for a large group of people who probably won't appreciate it, haha
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Baisao
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 am

steanze wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:05 am
Clay, firing temperature, pour speed, size, wall thickness are all important. Here is another example. Consider a pot that is made of lao zhuni (great clay for yancha), but with very slow pour. That would make it unusable for yancha, despite the clay is good.
I haven’t found many absolutes in GFC and taste varies from person to person. With this in mind, I respectfully disagree regarding the importance of pour speed and the affinity of yancha with lao zhuni.

I think having a fast pour speed is desirable but accommodations can be made for a modest to slow pour speed. Augmenting pots to increase pour speed, as seen in other threads, is extreme. Just break the water seal during your pour if you want it faster. This is more common than drilling larger holes in lid knobs. It also gives you more flexibility in pot selection as you don’t have to rule out an otherwise ideal pot because its pour is slower than you desire.

I’ve brewed yancha in lao zhuni (late Qing junde and early ROC ba le ), and late 60s F1 hongni (shuiping). The early ROC has been used for over a decade for yancha with what I thought were excellent results. I’ve recently changed my mind on which clay was best.

The late Qing lao zhuni junde pot expressed the yancha as though it were in high definition. There were strong roasted notes I would have preferred to have been attenuated. Instead, it amplified those high notes. This teapot had worked exceptionally well for all oolongs and greens I had tried with it, except yancha.

The early ROC lao zhuni ba le teapot is really the wrong shape but it was the teapot I selected for yancha way back when. It has the same faults as the Qing teapot above, though not as pronounced. It conveys the leaf exactly as it is, without amplification, but even that reveals unpleasant roasted notes that can be too strong. I plan to reset this pot and use it for something more fitting.

The late 60s hongni from Factory 1 produced the best yancha I’ve tasted. The unpleasant roasted notes, specifically these unpleasant high notes, were well managed with this clay. The variety I was drinking last is called Sparrow’s Tongue. It has an aroma that is reminiscent of wisteria in addition to the usual yancha flavors. This wisteria aroma was every bit as present as the tea from the lao zhuni teapots, but everything was in balance.

This reminds me of an equalizer on a stereo. The zhuni teapots had too much treble, you might say. Whereas the hongni was perfectly equalized.
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Kale
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am

Baisao wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 am
….Just break the water seal during your pour if you want it faster...…
Can you please explain?


Also, I live in the west and therefore my knowledge is inevitably limited, but surprisingly I have seen more experienced drinkers that choose Zini/QSN for yancha than such that choose red clay. Have you experimented with yancha in brown/purple clay? did you find it not so good? or just different (more bass, to use your example, :-) ) ? Just interested in hearing about your experience.
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Bok
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:37 am

Kale wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am
Baisao wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 am
….Just break the water seal during your pour if you want it faster...…
Can you please explain?
If I am not mistaken, it means to tilt the pot in such a way that it overflows not only from the spout, but also over the rim, thus emptying the pot faster. Lifting the lid with the finger that controls the lid knob at the same time will help that as well and is good practise in general to allow additional oxygen to influence the brew.
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Bok
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:40 am

Kale wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am
Also, I live in the west and therefore my knowledge is inevitably limited, but surprisingly I have seen more experienced drinkers that choose Zini/QSN for yancha than such that choose red clay. Have you experimented with yancha in brown/purple clay? did you find it not so good? or just different (more bass, to use your example, :-) ) ? Just interested in hearing about your experience.
I would say it depends - always of course - on the quality of the tea. If the roast is too strong or has other defects, a more porous clay might help to balance. For top quality Yancha I would not like anything taken away by the clay.
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steanze
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:49 am

Baisao wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 am

I haven’t found many absolutes in GFC and taste varies from person to person. With this in mind, I respectfully disagree regarding the importance of pour speed and the affinity of yancha with lao zhuni.
I also brew yancha in late Qing and ROC lao zhuni as well as late '60s F1 hongni. I am not advocating for drilling holes in pots, I also would avoid that.

With regard to pour speed, the accommodations I'm aware of are slightly opening the lid during pour (I think this is what you're referring to by "breaking the water seal"), which is quite messy, and reducing the amount of leaf in the pot. The latter does not produce the same results as a well-packed pot though. So on this I agree with teaism when he regards pour speed as at least as important as clay for yancha (also in part because steeps are so fast that the time during which the tea is exposed to the clay is short). What leaf/water ratio do you usually use? Are there other accommodations you use besides the ones I mentioned?

With regard to clay and the roast notes, when the roast notes are too high I attribute that to either yancha that has not rested enough, or yancha that was over-roasted. So usually I consider that to be a problem of the tea rather than a problem of the clay. However, if the yancha you are brewing is of high quality and has already rested a year or so, we might just have different preferences. And '60s F1 hongni is an excellent clay to brew yancha too, I would tend to avoid zini/qingshuini though.
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ShuShu
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:56 am

Bok wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:40 am
Kale wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am
Also, I live in the west and therefore my knowledge is inevitably limited, but surprisingly I have seen more experienced drinkers that choose Zini/QSN for yancha than such that choose red clay. Have you experimented with yancha in brown/purple clay? did you find it not so good? or just different (more bass, to use your example, :-) ) ? Just interested in hearing about your experience.
I would say it depends - always of course - on the quality of the tea. If the roast is too strong or has other defects, a more porous clay might help to balance. For top quality Yancha I would not like anything taken away by the clay.
I think that porous clays do more than just "taking away" or "muting" etc (this is why I don't like this term). At least In my experience, they also bring out other qualities of the tea and can certainly benefit top quality tea. I always drink new tea in a gaiwan in order to "get to know it" but often greatly enjoy it in a zini even if it is $$$ (which can also be pretty roasty)
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Kale
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:01 am

steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:49 am
I would tend to avoid zini/qingshuini though.
Steanze, Im sure you are also familier with experienced drinkers that prefer zini/qsn with yancha. Do you think it is just a matter of preference? Or is it strictly to manage the roast?
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Baisao
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:46 am

steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:49 am
Baisao wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 am

I haven’t found many absolutes in GFC and taste varies from person to person. With this in mind, I respectfully disagree regarding the importance of pour speed and the affinity of yancha with lao zhuni.
I also brew yancha in late Qing and ROC lao zhuni as well as late '60s F1 hongni. I am not advocating for drilling holes in pots, I also would avoid that.

With regard to pour speed, the accommodations I'm aware of are slightly opening the lid during pour (I think this is what you're referring to by "breaking the water seal"), which is quite messy, and reducing the amount of leaf in the pot. The latter does not produce the same results as a well-packed pot though. So on this I agree with teaism when he regards pour speed as at least as important as clay for yancha (also in part because steeps are so fast that the time during which the tea is exposed to the clay is short). What leaf/water ratio do you usually use? Are there other accommodations you use besides the ones I mentioned?

With regard to clay and the roast notes, when the roast notes are too high I attribute that to either yancha that has not rested enough, or yancha that was over-roasted. So usually I consider that to be a problem of the tea rather than a problem of the clay. However, if the yancha you are brewing is of high quality and has already rested a year or so, we might just have different preferences. And '60s F1 hongni is an excellent clay to brew yancha too, I would tend to avoid zini/qingshuini though.
I do not mean to say that you drill holes in your teapots, only that I've seen people promote doing it here. Having a fast pour is desirable but not always available to us. This is why breaking the water seal can be an effective remedy.

I haven't found it to be messy unless the pot is tilted too far when opening the rear of the lid: leaves stay in the pot and all tea exits the spout, not the rim. Tilting too far could be considered poor technique anyway. It doesn't take much of an opening to make the tea flow faster on slow pots where the problem is with the hole in the lid being too narrow.

My proportions are around 6-7 grams for a 120 ml teapot. The yanchas I have been drinking lately are from 2016 and well rested: second generation Rou Gui (gifted to me by Winnie just before she passed) and Sparrow's Tongue. They weren't as aggressively roasted as some but I admit that I may be sensitive to those high roasted notes.

Zini wouldn't be my first choice for yancha. I'll give it a try because Kale asked about it. I'll keep an open mind about it.
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Baisao
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:49 am

Kale wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am
Can you please explain?
I mean to open the rear of the lid just enough to let air in by pressing forward on the knob. I should have been more clear about that. Contrary to what steanze said just above, it does not have to be messy. It is only messy if you are pouring with the pot tilted too far so that tea washes around the lid, but tilting too far too early could be considered poor technique anyway.
Kale wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:15 am
Also, I live in the west and therefore my knowledge is inevitably limited, but surprisingly I have seen more experienced drinkers that choose Zini/QSN for yancha than such that choose red clay. Have you experimented with yancha in brown/purple clay? did you find it not so good? or just different (more bass, to use your example, :-) ) ? Just interested in hearing about your experience.
I haven't tried it in zini, it wouldn't be my first choice, but I have a zini shuiping from the same era as the hongni pot I mentioned. I'll give it a try for comparison.
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steanze
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am

The conversation is becoming quite fun :)

With respect to ShuShu's point, definitely porous pots also emphasize some aspects of the tea. Sometimes that can also be achieved by muting some others, Baisao's analogy with music works quite well here. If you lower the volume of one instrument, you may now be better able to hear the melody of another. A more porous pot also enables you to push a tea harder, which can improve its thickness. A thing to note is that $$$ is not a measure of the quality of a tea.

With respect to Kale's point, I am not familiar with experienced drinkers who would choose zini over hongni or zhuni for yancha, if the yancha is not over-roasted. Usually the debate is between hongni and zhuni. I am familiar however with experienced drinkers who choose a particular zini pot over a particular hongni or zhuni pot for its other properties, like shape or pour speed. There might be particular yanchas or particular circumstances for which zini might work (if you are looking for a particular outcome) but in general I don't think it is ideal.

To Baisao's point, yes, I understand what you were referring to when you mentioned drilling holes :) I need to clarify my point about opening the lid. There are a couple of different reasons why the pour might be slow. If the problem is that the lid hole is too small, then I agree with Baisao that opening the lid slightly is a good solution. I was thinking of the case when the spout is too narrow. In that case, breaking the water seal alone is not very helpful, unless the pot is tilted enough to allow tea to flow from the lid opening. That is messy.
Also now I understand a bit better our differences with respect to pour speed, as I usually use 5-6 grams of leaf in a 70ml pot (~8gr/100ml). I can see that at 6-7 gr per 120ml (~6gr/100ml) there would be a bit more leeway in terms of pour speed.
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Baisao
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:44 pm

steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am
The conversation is becoming quite fun :)
I agree! As frequently happens, we find more common ground as we open the discussion. I fret that too many of us have dogmatic beliefs that are not borne out by experience and experimentation, yet we hold on to the detriment of ourselves and others. I am glad to be in your good company.
steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am
A thing to note is that $$$ is not a measure of the quality of a tea.
Indeed! And as you have alluded, teas don't always age reliably. The Rou Gui and Sparrow's Tongue I've been drinking recently are exceptional yet don't cost thousands of dollars per gram. Neither is bog standard. I feel that I lose a lot of aroma when using a gaiwan and get much more... and better structured... aroma using a teapot. Of course, the teapot must fit the tea.

steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am
With respect to Kale's point, I am not familiar with experienced drinkers who would choose zini over hongni or zhuni for yancha, if the yancha is not over-roasted. Usually the debate is between hongni and zhuni. I am familiar however with experienced drinkers who choose a particular zini pot over a particular hongni or zhuni pot for its other properties, like shape or pour speed. There might be particular yanchas or particular circumstances for which zini might work (if you are looking for a particular outcome) but in general I don't think it is ideal.
I second this, all of this. I'll give yancha with zini a try soon and will keep an open mind. Tea is a dead thing without experimentation. The zini teapot I'll try it with will provide a good comparison to the hongni pot since it is he same shape, size, manufacturer, and era. Both were reset this month and are essentially new at this point.
steanze wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am
...I usually use 5-6 grams of leaf in a 70ml pot (~8gr/100ml). I can see that at 6-7 gr per 120ml (~6gr/100ml) there would be a bit more leeway in terms of pour speed.
I am almost filled to the brim with dry leaf at 6-7 gr per 120ml. Are you crushing your yancha in the center to get that many grams in?
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