Is Yixing more porous than CZ??

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Baisao
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:05 pm

Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:47 pm
steanze wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm
.m. wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:07 pm

There is no way to say if a pot is muting by looking at a photo of its shiny exterior. Is there?
Nope. Unless it's porcelain or a clearly recognizable clay type fired in a clearly recognizable way (i.e. 1960 factory 1 hongni fired in a gas kiln).

Trusar does this pot look muting?

JozanIII.jpg
can you send a bigger picture?
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Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:11 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:05 pm
Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:47 pm
steanze wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm


Nope. Unless it's porcelain or a clearly recognizable clay type fired in a clearly recognizable way (i.e. 1960 factory 1 hongni fired in a gas kiln).

Trusar does this pot look muting?

JozanIII.jpg
can you send a bigger picture?

ok its hard to tell without feeling it. it doesnt look as smooth and sattin as the CZ i have, it looks to have slightly matted texture, but you've already said, its silky smooth, almost slippery, so i guess i would need to hold it to fully tell.
And this i will do once i get a day off on friday. ill go to this place which is suppose to be trust worthy, feel the pots, take mine there and judge.
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:14 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:05 pm
Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:47 pm
steanze wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm


Nope. Unless it's porcelain or a clearly recognizable clay type fired in a clearly recognizable way (i.e. 1960 factory 1 hongni fired in a gas kiln).

Trusar does this pot look muting?

JozanIII.jpg
can you send a bigger picture?
ok ive taken a large picture of mine and it also looks slightly matted in the picture, when in actuality its not.
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Bok wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:24 pm
This is an example of high fired CZ clay from ROC period. Orange on the inside and red on outside.
Nice pot! Now for the million dollar question: Muting/porous or not?

Attached my previously mentioned modern CZ pot.
Thanks. Zero porousity......well for now atleast since it needs spout drilled out more before I can use it.

Nice rustic wabi sabi look to your pot
so its not porous/muting?
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Baisao
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:27 pm

It’s difficult from photos, no? And this pot feels like fine silk. The particle size is finer than 60s F1 hongni and zini. And yet it will weep a bit if water is left in it overnight. I can’t say whether it is muting or not. Each specimen is different. I have another one of his pots from the same clay but a different period in his life. The tea from that pot tastes different from tea in this pot. Not bad or good, but obviously different.

We can bookend this here by saying that generalizations are hard to make with small sample sizes. Even the same clay by the same master- and Jozan III is most certainly a master- can have different effects on tea.
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:30 pm

when i pour hot water over the inside and outside of the pot, the exterior of the pot sucks the water on it within a couple of seconds. does that mean it is porous?
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:27 pm
It’s difficult from photos, no? And this pot feels like fine silk. The particle size is finer than 60s F1 hongni and zini. And yet it will weep a bit if water is left in it overnight. I can’t say whether it is muting or not. Each specimen is different. I have another one of his pots from the same clay but a different period in his life. The tea from that pot tastes different from tea in this pot. Not bad or good, but obviously different.

We can bookend this here by saying that generalizations are hard to make with small sample sizes. Even the same clay by the same master- and Jozan III is most certainly a master- can have different effects on tea.
thats what we need to know, is it muting? if the particles are finer i would guess is it is less porous and muting, but only you can say.

is porous and muting the same?

theoretically they should over lap, if porous is and pores in the clay sucking up water, it should also suck up the tea and tea oils with it, muting the tea. if the particle size is too small and it clay is powdered down to flour before working it, it would most probably be less porous ( firing also helps too), because there is less surface area.
if post card teas pots feel the same as mine, then i would say that modern CZ hongnis are like the one i have.

have you been to postcard tea shop?
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steanze
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:04 pm

@Trusar the pot I posted has much finer particles than F1 hongni, but it is more muting. Thanks @Baisao for posting another picture. The thing you just wrote in your last post is exactly what we've been telling you is incorrect. Finer particle does not mean less muting. There are plenty of examples. We showed you some examples. If you had the opportunity to do side by side comparisons with these pots, you would know. I understand that intuitively the rule you wrote seems to make sense. But it does not work that way.

How quickly water evaporates when poured over a pot is also not a good index of porosity. That happens with both zini and zhuni, that have very different porosity. To be sure, you need to try the pot side by side with a gaiwan. With experience, you can learn to recognize some kinds of clay and have some guesses. But it is specific to the type of clay, there isn't a rule like "finer particles = less porous". And other factors in addition to clay type need to be considered, such as firing temperature. Some of those things can be partly inferred from pictures in some cases, but it is not always easy.
Chadrinkincat
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:19 pm

Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:22 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Bok wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm

Nice pot! Now for the million dollar question: Muting/porous or not?

Attached my previously mentioned modern CZ pot.
Thanks. Zero porousity......well for now atleast since it needs spout drilled out more before I can use it.

Nice rustic wabi sabi look to your pot
so its not porous/muting?
Read it again. I haven’t been able to use it due to spout opening being messed up so zero muting was a joke. It can’t be muting if it can’t brew tea yet.
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:02 pm

steanze wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:04 pm
Trusar the pot I posted has much finer particles than F1 hongni, but it is more muting. Thanks Baisao for posting another picture. The thing you just wrote in your last post is exactly what we've been telling you is incorrect. Finer particle does not mean less muting. There are plenty of examples. We showed you some examples. If you had the opportunity to do side by side comparisons with these pots, you would know. I understand that intuitively the rule you wrote seems to make sense. But it does not work that way.

How quickly water evaporates when poured over a pot is also not a good index of porosity. That happens with both zini and zhuni, that have very different porosity. To be sure, you need to try the pot side by side with a gaiwan. With experience, you can learn to recognize some kinds of clay and have some guesses. But it is specific to the type of clay, there isn't a rule like "finer particles = less porous". And other factors in addition to clay type need to be considered, such as firing temperature. Some of those things can be partly inferred from pictures in some cases, but it is not always easy.
ok

im looking into it, ill do some research.

so far :

https://www.quora.com/Why-clay-has-poro ... -than-sand

so far this is what i read the following in the above article:

"Porosity is inversely proportional to grain size, with sediment composed of finer grains, such as silt and clay, having a substantially greater volume of open spaces than those composed of coarse grains, such as sand and gravel."
Clay and silt have finer particles and hence more surface area. So porosity is more. But permeability of clay is very poor. Hence you would have noticed clay to hold lot of water whereas water easily passes through sand.

and heres another: (but his one is quite hard, the conclusions are at the end,)

https://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci-discu ... -print.pdf
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:12 pm

and maybe another:

https://www.onepetro.org/conference-paper/SPE-178296-MS

I think all the articles so far say there is a correlation between grain size and porosity, but they say smaller size is greater porosity (i think).
now thinking about is , smaller size can mean greater porosity. Even if the particle is smaller it means now there are more particles, each of which are still porous on their own, so when you put more particles together you have greater total porosity (i think).

ill keep looking into it.

thanks
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:22 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:27 pm
It’s difficult from photos, no? And this pot feels like fine silk. The particle size is finer than 60s F1 hongni and zini. And yet it will weep a bit if water is left in it overnight. I can’t say whether it is muting or not. Each specimen is different. I have another one of his pots from the same clay but a different period in his life. The tea from that pot tastes different from tea in this pot. Not bad or good, but obviously different.

We can bookend this here by saying that generalizations are hard to make with small sample sizes. Even the same clay by the same master- and Jozan III is most certainly a master- can have different effects on tea.
weep water?

you mean you fill it with water and the next day is sweats out the exterior?
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Baisao
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:39 pm

Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:22 pm
Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:27 pm
It’s difficult from photos, no? And this pot feels like fine silk. The particle size is finer than 60s F1 hongni and zini. And yet it will weep a bit if water is left in it overnight. I can’t say whether it is muting or not. Each specimen is different. I have another one of his pots from the same clay but a different period in his life. The tea from that pot tastes different from tea in this pot. Not bad or good, but obviously different.

We can bookend this here by saying that generalizations are hard to make with small sample sizes. Even the same clay by the same master- and Jozan III is most certainly a master- can have different effects on tea.
weep water?

you mean you fill it with water and the next day is sweats out the exterior?
Yes, the exterior will be moist. I haven’t left water in his pots overnight because they are too valuable, but when I pour hot water into them I can feel the moisture increase in my hand. Specifically, I feel moisture moving from the pot to my palm. I have no doubt it would have a moist exterior if I left water in it overnight. This is consistent with other pots that behave this way and with which I’ve left water in them overnight and they’ve wept.
Last edited by Baisao on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Baisao
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:43 pm

Doop
Trusar
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:48 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:39 pm
Trusar wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:22 pm
Baisao wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:27 pm
It’s difficult from photos, no? And this pot feels like fine silk. The particle size is finer than 60s F1 hongni and zini. And yet it will weep a bit if water is left in it overnight. I can’t say whether it is muting or not. Each specimen is different. I have another one of his pots from the same clay but a different period in his life. The tea from that pot tastes different from tea in this pot. Not bad or good, but obviously different.

We can bookend this here by saying that generalizations are hard to make with small sample sizes. Even the same clay by the same master- and Jozan III is most certainly a master- can have different effects on tea.
weep water?

you mean you fill it with water and the next day is sweats out the exterior?
Yes, the exterior will be moist. I haven’t left water in his pots overnight because they are too valuable, but when I pour hot water into them I can feel the moisture increase in my hand. Specifically, I feel moisture moving from the pot to my palm. I have no doubt it would have a moist exterior if I left water in it overnight. This is consistent with other pots that behave this way and with which I’ve left water in them overnight and they’ve wept.
I have seasoned and used my zini quite a lot, i think the breathability has gone and the pores are saturated with tea oils, so i dont think it currently does that, but ill have to check. i cant remember if it did that when i got first got it either. But it did absorb the flavours of the tea into the pot. ill check to see if the Hongni from EOT does this when i get it.

thanks
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