Is Yixing more porous than CZ??

Trusar
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Baisao wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:47 pm
Trusar wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:46 pm
ok according to YS website:

- "this clay contains very high amount of iron oxide"
- "The finer the clay used the more sheen the pot has"
- "The clay is highly porous but without allowing water to escape or soak in deeply."

you said your teapot, sweats out the water from the inside to the outside. so far this is the best description for a fully porous clay pot. half porous would probably just be muting without sweating because is gets absorbed from the inside but doesn't quite get as far as the outside.

According to YS the water doesn't soak in deeply or escape (dont know what they mean by escape). so then how is exactly is it highly porous? (if you know). if anything there saying its highly porous, but giving a reason as to why its not highly porous.
maybe the iron oxide somehow plays a factor.

the YS pot i have does not sweat or mute. the most it does is have react with some teas.
There are many factors at play. For example, if the shudei teapot had been fired at a higher temperature, it might no longer weep. The silica and other components of the clay might vitrify in such a way that it could not weep. It is stoneware, but it is possible that it could change its internal structure under a higher temperature.

The point of the shudei example was to show a glossy pot, with a smooth finish, that is nevertheless extremely porous.

I think that there are many variables involved that makes it difficult to make an absolute from a generalization. As we’ve been discussing the affect of porosity on tea, we have not discussed the one generalization all of my teachers have said is the reason CZ teapots affect tea: they are wheel thrown rather than slab built!

I have no way to prove my teachers are correct about this but they would tell me, consistently, to add an extra gram of tea to a CZ teapot compared to a F1 hongni teapot of the same size.

I know this muddies things. I am sorry. But it should show you that there are many things going on here, and some of them are just passed along generalizations.

Cheers!
Ok so does that mean your shudei is no longer porous if you fired it at a high temp and it no longer weeps? due to the high heat and the silica

your teachers???
what do you study?

i will read up on clay particle size relationship to porosity when im off on friday, or sunday, and comment later. cant be bothered right now.
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steanze
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:29 pm

Trusar wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm
I was thinking of emailing them and asking.

think its a good idea?

if so i was going to say something along the lines of what makes this tea pot porous? or why is it porous? (CZ hongni i bought of him). what exactly does it do that makes it porous?
because from my experience and according the the website it doesn't absorb moisture (and then sweat it out) and it doesn't mute any of the teas, all it does do is conduct heat effectively and maybe react very well with some teas.
You can ask, but I don't know if I would rely on their answer to that question. Actually I am not 100% sure myself what is your question... are you asking in general what it means that a teapot is porous?
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steanze
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:39 pm

Trusar wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:47 pm

no that was the entire line, maybe they are referring to just CZ clay rather than all clay types.
heres the whole paragraph:

"Feng Xi area near Chaozhou (in Guangdong) is where the clay is mined. It's a mountainous area and the clay mined there is very fine and is easy to work when it's mixed with water. Typically the clay is worked on a wheel. Chaozhou Hong Ni after firing takes on a deep red-orange color and a natural sheen. The finer the clay used the more sheen the pot has. The clay has a very high level of iron oxide, it's very pliable and after firing contracts about 15%. Firing temperatures used in the local kilns are close to 1000 celsius."

You said your corse pot had picked up a sheen, does that mean when it was unused it did not have a sheen?
I have a coarse zini, and it has the same/similar sheen to the CZ i have. The only difference is i had season the outside of the zini, but the CZ was like that when i got it.

teahabitat actually as a pot made by the same maker, zhang lin hao, and the teapot was available at YS but is now sold out. on Teahabitat it says to use it for sheng and be prepared to be surprised. i might try this. if it somehow takes the astringency away then......

how do i unseason a teapot? if i try it with sheng ill need to remove all the sheng out of the pores in the teapot just incase it doesnt work out, and i dont want to keep mixing teas in it just in case.

thanks
Sounds like they are talking about CZ teapots. I don't have enough experience with CZ teapots of different grain size to know whether that is correct. I know that in general it is not correct, and it is not correct among Yixing pots. I have a couple of coarser pots. Some had some sheen also when new, others did not. Depends on the clay type, and how they were fired. In some cases, pots might be slightly (or not so slightly) polished, which could also make them shinier (this is done often for jianshui pots, and was done to some late Qing Yixings exported to Thailand).

A pot might well take astringency away, but it might mute other aspects of the tea. If you want to brew young sheng, I recommend a thin porcelain gaiwan. There are a few cases where some youth flaws can be corrected with yixing, but there is some risk. If the tea is too astringent now, perhaps you can let it age and drink something else in the meanwhile, not all sheng is enjoyable when young. Perhaps I can help more if you tell us a bit more about the type of sheng you are brewing.

You can boil a teapot wrapping the body and lid in separate cloths to prevent them from banging against the metal pot and each other. You need to put the teapot in when the water is room temperature. You need to let the water cool down gradually before taking the teapot out to avoid thermal shock. It is a bit delicate, imo it is really only needed if you are switching from heavy use for roasted teas. This is just my perspective, others might chime in with their considerations.
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Baisao
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:09 pm

Trusar wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Ok so does that mean your shudei is no longer porous if you fired it at a high temp and it no longer weeps? due to the high heat and the silica

your teachers???
what do you study?

i will read up on clay particle size relationship to porosity when im off on friday, or sunday, and comment later. cant be bothered right now.
Yes, it means that it is possible that this shudei might be as porous as glass if a higher firing temperature had been used. This suggests that there is more to porosity than partical size. Of course, there are many factors at play that will determine a clay’s porosity.

Regarding my teachers, it is more appropriate to say they are my friends. I learned much of what I know about Yixing and Taiwanese teas from these three friends from Taiwan. We have sat together with tea for countless hours discussing pots, teas, techniques, etc. I called them my teachers as a matter of respect.

It is important to have someone to guide you in the beginning. Later, it is important to guidance from others. Much later, it is important to just sit with tea. A decade of sitting with tea might not be long enough.
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Bok
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:08 pm

Trusar wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:47 pm
You said your corse pot had picked up a sheen, does that mean when it was unused it did not have a sheen?
I have two CZ items, one is a teapot, the other a kettle, both have the characteristic orangey CZ clay, which is rough almost sandy to the touch, not smooth or shiny at all.

If you look at vintage or antique CZ pots, they are all glazed on the outside with red clay, which is smooth and shiny, the inside however is rough and orange like the original clay.

All this makes me think that those pots you are talking about is not original CZ clay but a blend of other things…

True, authentic CZ should be orange-red in colour and mat in appearance.
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Bok
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:10 pm

@Trusar please for the sake of everyone's reading convenience, shorten the quotes to the part you are referring to, as opposed to quote a whole long paragraph... :roll:
Gets very tiresome to scroll through a lot of repeated things...
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OCTO
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:19 pm

@Trusar , @steanze , @Baisao and my fellow tea buddies....

Here's my 2cents.... Like I said, this is getting fun.. so let's not take the fun out of teapot appreciation by being overly scientific about this. Coming back to the topic in hand, Is CZ clay more porous than Yixing?... Simple answer, yes and no. There are Yixing pots that are so porous, they don't even need a spout... those I will reject due to poor firing temperatures. But there are also modern CZ pots that are so highly fired, they exhibit characters of Yixing ZhuNi clay. Their clay coarser than that of Yixing, comparing to HongNi as a sparring partner. Many vintage CZ pots are dipped in a layer of fine clay paint before heading to the kiln. That gives it the smooth outer surface and rough inner walls.

I have a vintage Yixing that is so porous, it sounds hollow when you try to clang the pot's lid. But then, it is this very poorly fired pot that brews up a storm with Ripe Puerh. Same goes for a porous CZ pot that I have. It's terrible with lightly or highly roasted DanCong or YanCha. But nails it with medium roasted DanCong. I have (what I would consider as modern) 15 yearold CZ pot, shines out of the box... brand new. This pot also nails it with medium roast DanCong. Again, pitching a HongNi against CZ for Sheng Puerh, I personally prefer HongNi or Porcelain Gaiwan. But that doesn't mean CZ is not a good match for Sheng Puerh. At any given day, a teapot is as good a match as the one sipping the tea.

@Trusar the CZ pot you shared with us is a modern CZ pot. Same goes for the CZ pot shared by @Bok . CZ Teapot Artist over time have perfected their skills, learning from their Yixing counterparts. Clays have also benefited from better filtration, hence resulting in more refined separation in the level of coarseness. Hence, it's of no surprise modern CZ pots and ring at a very high pitch. I'm making a general assumption that all the pots discussed here are of genuine clay and not with added iron oxide to make it ring like a bell!.... :D

Are the CZ pots muting? again, yes and no. As we all already know, brand new clay will tend to mute and absorb aroma. The magic question is How much does it absorb and how long does it keep absorbing? Rest be assured.... It will surely Absorb and Mute when the pot is brand new! I for one will surely treasure a pot of this character. Why so?? That's another story... let's not go off topic.
Trusar wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:54 pm
actually i might just ask tea habitat, or i can ask both, now that i know they both have used this teapot maker zhang lin hao.
Don't stop there... Ask more! The world of CZ/Yixing teapot is so vast and ambiguous, keep asking and keep learning. When the opportunity arises, purchase a ticket, fly to Shanghai and take a ride to Yixing. Then take a train ride to ChaoZhou. You will definitely come across thousands of teapot maker , artist or even masters. Take a look at how they make each pot. I can guarantee that each potter you come across will have a generic way of making their teapot and some additional strokes that will make the teapot their own masterpiece. Yes, I'm referring to fully handmade teapots. Life is too short to debate over partially handmade or mass produced pots.

When you've found your answer and when opportunity knocks again... take a fight to Malaysia and Singapore. You will be greeted by many teapot collections that will turn your entire bank balance upside down. From masterpieces to vintage, it's all available. As a matter of fact, there is a Vintage Yixing Teapot exhibition going on in Singapore during this Nov/Dec months. Not too sure of the exact dates.

Then when opportunity arises again, take a flight to Taiwan and Japan. These guys will turn your entire teapot world upside-down. Forget about emptying your bank... once you're hooked, you might just relocate... *hint* .. *hint*... @Bok . There were many export grade teapots made and shipped out of China to Europe, Japan, Taiwan and South East Asia. The quality and workmanship is unlike what you get domestically (excluding imperial teaware).

There you go.... if you're more confused than when you first started.... GOOD!. You're on the right track. Most of us are still confused but we are far from being discontented with our purchases. We are confused not because of bad advises or bad choices. We are confused in how a small vessel can bring the entire world together over a cup. As we continue to remain Annoyingly Patient for our answer, sit back and enjoy a cup... make it a few more cups.

Again... Teapot Appreciation , Tea Appreciation..... they are as subjective as why one decides to shave his/her head bald or grow their hair long.

Here's a toast to a cup that unites across boundaries!!

Cheers!!
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Bok
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:25 pm

@OCTO nice one, now all doubts... ah, meant to say certainties should be gone :mrgreen:
Welcome to the jungle.
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Baisao
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:11 pm

OCTO wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:19 pm
There you go.... if you're more confused than when you first started.... GOOD!. You're on the right track. Most of us are still confused but we are far from being discontented with our purchases. We are confused not because of bad advises or bad choices. We are confused in how a small vessel can bring the entire world together over a cup. As we continue to remain Annoyingly Patient for our answer, sit back and enjoy a cup... make it a few more cups.
This certainly applies to me. I am baffled by how two previously unused teapots made of the same clay and by the same master can produce teas with very different characteristics. When there are such differences despite such close specificities, it makes generalizations about teapots and clays all the more uncertain. It’s in this way that each handmade teapot has a uniqueness to it, not unlike a personality.
Trusar
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm

I have two CZ items, one is a teapot, the other a kettle, both have the characteristic orangey CZ clay, which is rough almost sandy to the touch, not smooth or shiny at all.

If you look at vintage or antique CZ pots, they are all glazed on the outside with red clay, which is smooth and shiny, the inside however is rough and orange like the original clay.

All this makes me think that those pots you are talking about is not original CZ clay but a blend of other things…

True, authentic CZ should be orange-red in colour and mat in appearance.
i thought the CZ clay starts off as a rock, which they need to powder it down first before adding a little water and working into the dough like consistency to work into a teapot. does that not mean the corse feeling is due to how finely they powder the clay down first (also maybe firing)?
i cannot only now say for sure after seeing postcard teas CZ pots.
also as i mentioned before, tea habitat had a teapot by the same maker and it looked smooth and sheeny ( from looking at the pictures so maybe im wrong). chandrikat said these were trust worthy guys.
Also post card teas didn't look corse (ill confirm when i go there).
it seems i was right in one of my earlier posts in saying nowadays everyone has the smooth stuff.
ps my pot is smooth on the inside and outside, not just the outside.
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Bok
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:28 pm

Which probably means that they are unlikely pure CZ clay. Seems modern pots are a blend of other clays.

So as for Yixing we might need to distinguish between authentic pure CZ clay (which is not shiny) and the modern blends of uncertain ingredients.
Trusar
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Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:13 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:28 pm
Which probably means that they are unlikely pure CZ clay. Seems modern pots are a blend of other clays.

So as for Yixing we might need to distinguish between authentic pure CZ clay (which is not shiny) and the modern blends of uncertain ingredients.
but pots made by YANMING ZHANG himself are shiny. i doubt he would use blended CZ. I think the minerals in the CZ have changed and the CZ available now is also fired at higher temps.

im not sure if i will be able to go to postcard teas tomorrow, because the yixing hongni may be arriving.

but looking at their teapots, i can clearly see a sheen, and the are made by a ceramics master:

https://www.postcardteas.com/site/produ ... g-pc00250/
Trusar
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Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:51 pm

OK this CZ hongni from YS does actually make a difference . with the bai mu dan & bei dou (which is a cutting from the da hong poa mother plant). The bei dou and bai mu dan are a lot better from the teapot, thick liquor and fuller taste, when compared to a gaiwan.
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OCTO
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Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:38 pm

The fun has just begun... History is repeating itself!

https://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 3c0da8b4a0

We are catching up very soon. It stopped at 12 pages about 8 years ago... very informative.

Happy reading.

Cheers!!
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ShuShu
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:10 am

Trusar wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:51 pm
OK this CZ hongni from YS does actually make a difference . with the bai mu dan & bei dou (which is a cutting from the da hong poa mother plant). The bei dou and bai mu dan are a lot better from the teapot, thick liquor and fuller taste, when compared to a gaiwan.
Well, any unglazed teapot will make a difference compared to a gaiwan. In my view, unless the teapot is quite high-fired and dense, aromatic yancha loses too much of its aroma and high-pitched tones.
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