Question on stockpiled clay

[chaeric]

My understanding is that some of the best Yixing clay had been used up in the Factory 1 pots in the 60 or 70s. The clay used is not mineable anymore. However, a few vendors online say that the clay they use is from old stock. They write things like "original ore lao zini (old purple clay) mined from No. 4 Mine in Huanglongshan "

I've heard people say the modern clay isn't as good as the older clay. However, does that apply to clay acquired from old stock - would they not be the same quality? Or is the clay that was stockpiled lower quality modern clay before they closed it down?

[DailyTX]

This is a loaded question, here is a tiny bit of information I gathered…there are different mine sites in the HuangLongShan area. Factory one mainly used mine #4. Most clays used from late 1970s onward were blended to get color consistency and met demand of the market. 1990s started to have private studios/workshops. Factory one closed in 1997, and the clays mined and processed by Factory one were bought up by artisans from Factory one. It has been 26+ year since Factory one closed. I certainly believe some families may still have stock. However, it maybe impossible to prove raw clays from Factory one. Instead of doubting the source of clay, I prefer to just buy a vintage pot. Clay texture, firing style, shape, etc. can provide some evidences.

[Bok]

With amount of Yixing that is produced since the closing of factory one, I highly doubt that there is anything left of any stockpile... I mean it must run into the 100000s if not more of teapots. Quite unlikely. And if there were some old stock left, you'd 100% not see it used in falf-way affordable teapots. Common sense.

All that said, rock and mud is just that, I don't see why the earth itself, which is already quite old to begin with, would gain more lying around in a different place... If I recall correctly the benefits of aging clay for making teapots are only a few years, any more time and the clay does not get better.

Close your ears to these claims and only judge by what you can see and experience with the teapot yourself.

[chaeric]

This is a loaded question, here is a tiny bit of information I gathered…there are different mine sites in the HuangLongShan area. Factory one mainly used mine #4. Most clays used from late 1970s onward were blended to get color consistency and met demand of the market. 1990s started to have private studios/workshops. Factory one closed in 1997, and the clays mined and processed by Factory one were bought up by artisans from Factory one. It has been 26+ year since Factory one closed. I certainly believe some families may still have stock. However, it maybe impossible to prove raw clays from Factory one. Instead of doubting the source of clay, I prefer to just buy a vintage pot. Clay texture, firing style, shape, etc. can provide some evidences.

Thanks for the information. If they did have access to the same clay the quality of the teapot would be the same then, no?

I'm thinking of getting a vintage pot for some of those same reasons you mentioned, and I hear moodyguy is a good source.

[chaeric]

With amount of Yixing that is produced since the closing of factory one, I highly doubt that there is anything left of any stockpile... I mean it must run into the 100000s if not more of teapots. Quite unlikely. And if there were some old stock left, you'd 100% not see it used in falf-way affordable teapots. Common sense.

All that said, rock and mud is just that, I don't see why the earth itself, which is already quite old to begin with, would gain more lying around in a different place... If I recall correctly the benefits of aging clay for making teapots are only a few years, any more time and the clay does not get better.

Close your ears to these claims and only judge by what you can see and experience with the teapot yourself.

Well some vendors that are recommended claim to be using original clay, such as RealZisha. They have a few pages about where source it from. Essence of Tea, Mud and Leaves and others that were recommended also talk about using original ore.

Also, to clarify I'm not talking about aging clay - I'm asking how these stockpiled ores would perform relative to Factory 1 pots since they say they're coming from the same location. If what they're saying is true, it should perform similarly right?

[Bok]

and others that were recommended also talk about using original ore.

Some may really have access to and have proven long term connections to potters, some may not. I have seen some claims about clays that are inconsistent with the price of the finished pots.

I'm asking how these stockpiled ores would perform relative to Factory 1 pots since they say they're coming from the same location. If what they're saying is true, it should perform similarly right?

Not really, processing methods have changed over time, firing methods certainly have too. Not to forgot shape, thickness, size, which all contribute to the outcome in the cup.
Also what is leftover should be, if any, batches from the last years of the factory and those clays from the 90s are not really what people are after these days...

[Tyler]

Not a teapot person but I wouldn't infer too much about the quality of the clay just because it's from huanglongshan (and there's also the possibility that it's not even from there and someone somewhere along the line said that to make it sound more desirable)

I think the EoT and M&L pots are generally considered pretty decent, if you want a factory pot you can probably get one around the same price range

[Bok]

I think the EoT and M&L pots are generally considered pretty decent, if you want a factory pot you can probably get one around the same price range

Between those two, I'd opt for EoT. They have some really good connections to high level craftsmen.

[Tyler]

Between those two, I'd opt for EoT

Yeah I would too

[.m.]

It should be noted that since the early 80s some additives such as Barium Carbonate were being routinely added to zisha. So if a vendor is selling a super rare 30 or 40 year old clay (which probably means that it was processed 30-40 years ago, as the ore itself is ancient), there is a good chance it contains such additives.

[wave_code]

This is a loaded question, here is a tiny bit of information I gathered…there are different mine sites in the HuangLongShan area. Factory one mainly used mine #4. Most clays used from late 1970s onward were blended to get color consistency and met demand of the market. 1990s started to have private studios/workshops. Factory one closed in 1997, and the clays mined and processed by Factory one were bought up by artisans from Factory one. It has been 26+ year since Factory one closed. I certainly believe some families may still have stock. However, it maybe impossible to prove raw clays from Factory one. Instead of doubting the source of clay, I prefer to just buy a vintage pot. Clay texture, firing style, shape, etc. can provide some evidences.

Thanks for the information. If they did have access to the same clay the quality of the teapot would be the same then, no?

I'm thinking of getting a vintage pot for some of those same reasons you mentioned, and I hear moodyguy is a good source.

If you want old clay I would buy a genuine old pot- its the only way to be 100% sure. As @bok mentioned too many other things changed that are all part of the pots production for it to come out exactly like an F1 pot anyway. And I would imagine anyone who did still have clay from desirable F1 era, those new pots would likely be costing more than a lot of vintage pots. It also isn't as though F1 pots are consistent across the board themselves either.

I haven't tried any of their pots yet, I should, but I really do appreciate that EoT is clear about their clay blends and re-naming them to show that they come from similar locations or batches or are clays made to replicate/imitate certain older desireable blends that are effectively used up or extremely rare and expensive rather than claiming something is a particular blend it is not.

[Bok]

EoT is clear about their clay blends and re-naming them to show that they come from similar locations or batches or are clays made to replicate/imitate certain older desireable blends that are effectively used up or extremely rare and expensive rather than claiming something is a particular blend it is not.

Actually having direct contact and knowledge VS relying on what suppliers tell without being capable to verify

[steanze]

This is a topic that comes up from time to time...

- Some specific mines that were used have been mined out. However, there is still a large amount of Yixing clay from other mines. It is still possible to get Yixing clay that is as good as the old clay.

- Weathering the clay more than a few years does not matter. Stories of clay that was aged for decades are marketing.

Then, why aren't all modern pots as good as the old pots?

1. Production quantity increased massively. In the late 1800s to early 1900s, and even in the 60s and 70s, the number of Yixing teapots produced was only a fraction of the number produced annually today. While good quality clay can still be mined, it is more limited in amount, and more expensive. For this reason, lower quality clay that in the past was only used to make vases and jars is now also used to make teapots. It is difficult for buyers who are not very experienced to find the relatively few pots made with top quality clay among a sea of pots made of mediocre clay.

2. In order to save time and costs, chemical additives are used to skip some labor intensive clay processing steps. For example, one issue that can come up in Yixing teapot production is that some salts can come to the surface (efflorescence), causing some marks that might not be aesthetically appealing. Traditionally, clay was manually processed to prevent efflorescence from occurring, but this is a time consuming process. These days, usually potters add barium oxide, that binds to the salts, making it possible to avoid the manual processing steps. However, this has an impact on the final product - in my experience Yixing clay with added barium has colors that look a bit more saturated and looks a bit glossier, and it does not develop patina as well as clay processed with traditional methods.

[chaeric]

Between those two, I'd opt for EoT

Yeah I would too

Both websites say similar things about how their sourcing of clay and both have nice looking teapots. What exactly are you seeing that makes you pick one or the other?

Not a teapot person but I wouldn't infer too much about the quality of the clay just because it's from huanglongshan (and there's also the possibility that it's not even from there and someone somewhere along the line said that to make it sound more desirable)

I think the EoT and M&L pots are generally considered pretty decent, if you want a factory pot you can probably get one around the same price range

Factory pots seem to go for around 3x the price of EoT and M&L pots, so I don't know that I'd consider it the same price range. But actually I was looking at some F1 pots anyways. What do you make of the following?

http://www.zishaartgallery.com/product/ ... 5%a3%b6-2/

It seems kind of ornate given the price as I would have expected it to cost more.

[chaeric]

This is a topic that comes up from time to time...

- Some specific mines that were used have been mined out. However, there is still a large amount of Yixing clay from other mines. It is still possible to get Yixing clay that is as good as the old clay.

- Weathering the clay more than a few years does not matter. Stories of clay that was aged for decades are marketing.

Then, why aren't all modern pots as good as the old pots?

1. Production quantity increased massively. In the late 1800s to early 1900s, and even in the 60s and 70s, the number of Yixing teapots produced was only a fraction of the number produced annually today. While good quality clay can still be mined, it is more limited in amount, and more expensive. For this reason, lower quality clay that in the past was only used to make vases and jars is now also used to make teapots. It is difficult for buyers who are not very experienced to find the relatively few pots made with top quality clay among a sea of pots made of mediocre clay.

2. In order to save time and costs, chemical additives are used to skip some labor intensive clay processing steps. For example, one issue that can come up in Yixing teapot production is that some salts can come to the surface (efflorescence), causing some marks that might not be aesthetically appealing. Traditionally, clay was manually processed to prevent efflorescence from occurring, but this is a time consuming process. These days, usually potters add barium oxide, that binds to the salts, making it possible to avoid the manual processing steps. However, this has an impact on the final product - in my experience Yixing clay with added barium has colors that look a bit more saturated and looks a bit glossier, and it does not develop patina as well as clay processed with traditional methods.

Thanks for the great info!

Regarding point two, someone had told me all modern yixing clay has additives, but I don't think that's true, correct?