What if...

[Bok]

The recent discussions about Yixing got me thinking.

As most of us know, the high end Yixing clay pots are mostly out of reach for any among us, wealthy people in Asia compete to outbid each other to acquire them for exorbitant sums. So most of it never reaches any Western facing outlet. The few flea market finds in the West to rare to be counted.

So what if - the properties that many aim to find with an Yixing pot only apply to those top quality pots that we will never be able to purchase? That not many of us have ever used brewing tea.

Has anyone among us ever chanced upon having a cup of tea brewed with one of those real premium Yixing pots that are sold for thousand? Qing dynasty, lao zhuni etc. With so many fakes around how big are the chances that we are all not just imagining things, falling into some sort of wishful thinking...

Has anyone ever done blind tests with different kinds of pots to objectively see if there is a noticeable difference? Not easy to set up as to be accurate it would need to be the same pot shape and size, just in different materials. Maybe achievable with a classic shuiping shape which also exists in porcelain and other clays.

Sometimes I think one would be better off just buying better tea instead.

[Demea]

Perhaps, but isn’t the opposite also possible? Meaning that 90% of the benefits of using Yixing ware can be had by using modest, modern yixing, and only 10% improvement can be had from the ultra-rare Lao Zhuni, etc. type clays?

Hard to tell without good experimentation, which I agree would be really helpful!

[Bok]

Perhaps, but isn’t the opposite also possible? Meaning that 90% of the benefits of using Yixing ware can be had by using modest, modern yixing, and only 10% improvement can be had from the ultra-rare Lao Zhuni, etc. type clays?

Hard to tell without good experimentation, which I agree would be really helpful!

True, hadn’t thought about it that way!

[Bok]

Although from my own experience with modern modest Yixing as you name it very appropriately, I can not see any advantage over porcelain or “normal” clays as they are found in Taiwan. Oftentimes I found the simple outside glazed clay pots from Taiwan performing better with gaoshan than Yixing.

Other than that, and as I’ve stated before, the shape and heat retention properties seem much more important.

[ShuShu]

Although from my own experience with modern modest Yixing as you name it very appropriately, I can not see any advantage over porcelain or “normal” clays as they are found in Taiwan. Oftentimes I found the simple outside glazed clay pots from Taiwan performing better with gaoshan than Yixing.

Other than that, and as I’ve stated before, the shape and heat retention properties seem much more important.

How does the ordinary (but knowledgeable) person in Taiwan brew Gaoshan?
Edit: and what do you mean by " “normal” clays as they are found in Taiwan'

[Bok]

How does the ordinary (but knowledgeable) person in Taiwan brew Gaoshan?
Edit: and what do you mean by " “normal” clays as they are found in Taiwan'

Normal clay, as in clay from Taiwan, sometimes Japan. A lot of it comes from Miaoli. Mostly fired in electric kilns or the same clay wood fired over a few days or weeks.

You would not believe the kind of low-quality teapots people use on a daily basis. A lot are the same maybe-yixing-more-likely-not shuipings you see everywhere. Quite common are also off the shelf porcelain pots with cheesy decorations. The fancy pots you usually find in accountants, doctors and other more affluent peoples offices.

Lins ceramics are also pretty popular, although most people seem to gift the only, rather then using them... in my personal experience the glazed ones make terrible tea and the cups glaze as well does not enhance the tea favorably. Their purion line I have not tried.

Thing is, I had tea brewed in those vessels and it was excellent to a level that I can still recall it! A persimmon farmer who trades his best fruit for tea with befriended farmers, brewed a top high mountain in a very large, at least over 200ml, fake Yixing. And he was standing, whilst talking to us.

The tea was as I said, sublime! This particular experience kind of made me start to doubt how important the clay really is.

[Bok]

Among the younger tea crowd and the elitist tea circles up North, some Japanese potters are all the rage. I have to say, I am a bit careful with Japanese teaware, as it is not always suitable for high mountain tea and its higher temperature. Either the handling becomes tricky as it gets too hot in the wrong places, or the glazes influence the taste of the tea.

Getting better though, Taiwanese tea is increasingly popular in Japan, alongside with the knowledge how a pot for them should be built.

[Brent D]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this too
I have decided (for me) that there is no point in chasing the best clays if there is no way to ever know if you have bought it or not. Is a clay what it is sold as? The answer to this is determined by nothing more than a collection of personal opinions. Before I became an engineer, I was a gemologist. I am the kind of person that likes provable facts. Yixing appears to be riddled with a lack of provables, leaving the doors so open to forgery that even the most experienced experts can get fooled.
I’ve also been thinking about why I look for the best teas, only to put them in a pot designed to cover up some of their attributes and imbue others. Shouldn’t I be trying to taste everything that tea has naturally?
Maybe I should get out of yixing before I fall any farther down the rabbit hole. I think you can twist Falsa Dooms words to fit...Do you know the riddle of clay? Yixing is weak. Flesh is strong. What is a teapot compared to the hand that wields it?

[ShuShu]

Among the younger tea crowd and the elitist tea circles up North, some Japanese potters are all the rage. I have to say, I am a bit careful with Japanese teaware, as it is not always suitable for high mountain tea and its higher temperature. Either the handling becomes tricky as it gets too hot in the wrong places, or the glazes influence the taste of the tea.

Getting better though, Taiwanese tea is increasingly popular in Japan, alongside with the knowledge how a pot for them should be built.

Its interesting what you are saying about Japanese teaware. I have actually seen posts of members here who use JPN teaware to brew Gaoshan (I think it is Shigaraki clay or something).
I wonder if one of them can comment about this, type of clay, difference etc...

[Chadrinkincat]

Your paying for the rarity/craftsmanship of the pot rather than its ability to brew tea after a certain price. In a blind test you aren't gonna notice a significant advantage over a good $2-300 pot that warrants paying 5x more. Your setting yourself up for failure by chasing rare magical clay for brewing tea.

[steanze]

Thanks Bok for starting an interesting discussion. My main disagreement with your perspective is that you're making a general claim while you seem to mostly drink and have in mind gaoshan Taiwanese oolong when you say "tea".

Recently, a member of this forum sent me a personal message asking advice about a pot. I asked her/him: what tea do you want to brew with it? After s/he said s/he wanted to make gaoshan Taiwanese oolong, I told her/him something quite similar to what you wrote: a thin porcelain gaiwan will do very well with gaoshan, the only yixing pots that will outperform a thin porcelain gaiwan for gaoshan imo are 70s and earlier thin walled F1 hongni, and thin walled zhuni, and those pots are expensive and hard to get. In my opinion, it is still worth it, but it is a personal decision. With respect to pots with Taiwanese or Japanese clay, as long as they are thin walled and not porous they should work well. I would personally not use shigaraki as I find it too porous for my taste with gaoshan and it mutes the aromas more than I would like. And I'd stay away from thick or medium-thickness pots, because they can bring out a spinachy taste in gaoshan due to the excessive heat retention in between steeps, which steams the leaves.

An important point to make though is that many people here also drink other kinds of tea that's not gaoshan Taiwanese oolong. Saying that in general yixing only work better than porcelain if the yixing is super expensive because that tends to be true for gaoshan would be a bit like saying that red wine does not pair well with food because someone only eats fish. For teas like aged puerh and dark roast TGY, even more affordable yixing pots usually outperform porcelain. These teas take more heat and therefore can do with a less finely crafted yixing with thicker walls and greater heat retention. Furthermore, for these teas thickness and smoothness of the liquor are more important than the aromas, and the more affordable types of yixing clay like zini and qingshuini do a good job at rounding some of the possible storage flavors and bitterness, in turn letting you push the tea a bit more and yielding a brew that's thicker and has more qi/somatic effects.

In the end, there's a whole conversation to be had about whether we should value a pot only for its effect on the brewed tea or also for its aesthetic qualities. To some, having tea is an aesthetic pursuit to which the leaves and the brew and the art of ceramics jointly contribute. There is sometimes a very pragmatic attitude for which a pot is only "worth it" in the measure to which it improves the brew, and that its aesthetic appeal is superfluous. I am not saying that you think that - I know you study pottery and you spend time thinking about aesthetics. After all, there is a reason artisans spend time and effort crafting beautiful pots and customers are willing to pay a higher price for them. I am also not saying that aesthetics is a prerogative of yixing pots, there are incredibly beautiful Taiwanese and Japanese pots. However, there is a particular aesthetics of yixing clay, the appreciation of its color and texture, and of the patina and "softness" that it develops with use which is quite unlike other kinds of clay. That is something worth experiencing for a tea drinker, and if one likes it and finds that it contributes to the tea session, then it can be a very worthy reason to pay more for an yixing pot, just like one is willing to pay more for a pot made by their favorite artisan, not just because the lid fits better and does not dribble.

[tealifehk]

Great response above. I recently recommended a porcelain gaiwan over Yixing clay for someone in the Netherlands who told me he was getting spinachy flavors from his Lishan. Turned out he was brewing in Chaozhou clay, which I find very muting compared to Yixing clay!

I was skeptical about Yixing pots until I tried some high fire oolongs (including the Three Stamp) and aged pu, both of which were remarkably improved in green label pin zini. All of the storage aromas were gone with the pu and the tea was thick and smooth! I haven't found any other clay to give me this effect, although I have yet to try traditional storage pu in CZ clay (I will get on that ASAP)! So while all of this may be down to thermal properties, Yixing clay does improve my tea in ways no other clay I've tried does, and I have clay pots from Chaozhou, Nixing, Jianshui and even Sichuan to compare Yixing clay to.

Also interesting is that I have several green label pin zini pots in rotation (in identical clay); only the thickest has a really muting effect on storage aromas. The thinner walled ones don't mute the funk as much as I'd like! So it appears wall thickness is the major factor, at least with that clay.

BTW, Purion seems incredible for aromatic teas! I think it might be the best possible clay for gaoshan!

As steanze said, there is a lot more to vintage and antique Yixing than how they make tea. They are quite the investment vehicle as well, and prices are most certainly not going down on the older stuff or even 90s F1 pots! I see some HK dealers hoping for US$350-500 for 80s Factory 1 pots. Eventually they will get their asking price for them!

[ShuShu]

And I'd stay away from thick or medium-thickness pots, because they can bring out a spinachy taste in gaoshan due to the excessive heat retention in between steeps, which steams the leaves.


In the end, there's a whole conversation to be had about whether we should value a pot only for its effect on the brewed tea or also for its aesthetic qualities..

Wait! Do you mean that Lishan is not supposed to taste like spinach!?!?

And now seriously, my problem is exactly the opposite. I’m in love with the aesthetics of clay pots, I’m just trying to find a pot I can afford who wouldn’t ruin my gaoshan....
Steanze’s advice about keeping the lid off between infusions in order to avoid over brewing in thick-walled pots has just proved itself about an hour ago and should be emphasized!

[Bok]

Thanks Bok for starting an interesting discussion. My main disagreement with your perspective is that you're making a general claim while you seem to mostly drink and have in mind gaoshan Taiwanese oolong when you say "tea".

Yes that is true, you spotted the hole in my argument! I should have included that in my argument…

Recently, a member of this forum sent me a personal message asking advice about a pot. I asked her/him: what tea do you want to brew with it? After s/he said s/he wanted to make gaoshan Taiwanese oolong, I told her/him something quite similar to what you wrote: a thin porcelain gaiwan will do very well with gaoshan, the only yixing pots that will outperform a thin porcelain gaiwan for gaoshan imo are 70s and earlier thin walled F1 hongni, and thin walled zhuni, and those pots are expensive and hard to get. In my opinion, it is still worth it, but it is a personal decision. With respect to pots with Taiwanese or Japanese clay, as long as they are thin walled and not porous they should work well.

In my experience porcelain can not go rong with gaoshan, but taiwanese clay pots, wood fired or glazed yield a tiny bit better results, somehow more harmonious. I have no explanation as to why that is though, but I have tested it a lot of times with the same results.

In the end, there's a whole conversation to be had about whether we should value a pot only for its effect on the brewed tea or also for its aesthetic qualities. To some, having tea is an aesthetic pursuit to which the leaves and the brew and the art of ceramics jointly contribute.

That is very true and my weak spot! A teapot is the central piece of the whole setup and a beautiful pot contibutes so much to the whole enjoyment (at least for me). If it were only about functionality and being practical I would only own one or two pots!

[steanze]

Yes, I agree that some clay pots can outperform porcelain gaiwans on gaoshan a bit. I've found this mostly with thin 60s to 70s F1 hongni pots, but that suggests that probably there are some other clay pots out there that can do that too. I would love to learn more about what types of taiwanese clays and which artisans you had good results with. I do enjoy a pot by Peter Kuo that I use sometime and which performs very well