How does a westerner learn yixing?

theredbaron
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:21 am

ShuShu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:56 am


I said *somewhat* overpriced. The price on many pots is decent but not with all. Check this one for example, the price is almost $190 (138gbp). to the best of my relatively little experience I have seen these pots in $30 less....
https://www.essenceoftea.com/teaware/cl ... -1137.html
There is no fixed price on vintage and antique items. Prices are what the market is ready and willing to pay. A 30 US$ difference is not overpriced, i have seen western oriented vendors selling for a lot more, and i have seen many fakes sold as the real thing (as we have seen at the beginning of the thread here).

Then it depends on the source. EoT buys mostly in Malaysia as it is located there, which is not the cheapest market, but relatively safe as concerns authenticity. Thailand is much cheaper, but very difficult to authenticate. China is often very expensive, as i heard, as many Chinese traders buy in Malaysia and Taiwan (which bought up Thailand's market for several decades).
Lets also not forget that the western oriented market for Yixing is a tiny segment, and that the vast majority of vintage pots offered are the lowest segment and the start of vintage Yixing pots. 30 US$, i am sorry to say, is small change there in a market that deals with pots worth hundreds, thousands and ten thousands of US$.

Especially for a beginner it is better to buy from trusted vendors, even if for a small premium, and pots where one can be sure to get authentic ware. For good deals i would NOT go to any vendor that i do not know, and whose expertise i doubt, especially if the pots are too cheap. What appears cheap may in the end turn out to be a lot more expensive than what may appear expensive (as we saw here). For deals i stroll through flee markets here in the west, where for example the other day i bought for almost nothing a pot that turned out to be a 70's F1 worth hundreds because the seller had no idea what he sold.
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Brent D
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:21 am

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Last edited by Brent D on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Demea
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:58 am

For what it's wort, are you sure the latter two pots are fake? It looks from the FB group that edited also sold you a genuine 1970s F1 pot. Is it possible that it's only the first pot you mentioned that is inauthentic?
Last edited by pedant on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chadrinkincat
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:35 am

Brent D wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:21 am
I bought these from edited.
He is edited on tea chat.
Well respected, and knowledgeable enough to know what he was selling me.
You could try asking him for refund on fake F1. Im unsure is $300 was fair but the julunzhu looks like decent modern zhuni. What did he tell you about the those 2 pots that turned out to be false?
Last edited by pedant on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: mod edit: name removed
Chadrinkincat
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:38 am

theredbaron wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:21 am
ShuShu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:56 am


I said *somewhat* overpriced. The price on many pots is decent but not with all. Check this one for example, the price is almost $190 (138gbp). to the best of my relatively little experience I have seen these pots in $30 less....
https://www.essenceoftea.com/teaware/cl ... -1137.html
There is no fixed price on vintage and antique items. Prices are what the market is ready and willing to pay. A 30 US$ difference is not overpriced, i have seen western oriented vendors selling for a lot more, and i have seen many fakes sold as the real thing (as we have seen at the beginning of the thread here).

Then it depends on the source. EoT buys mostly in Malaysia as it is located there, which is not the cheapest market, but relatively safe as concerns authenticity. Thailand is much cheaper, but very difficult to authenticate. China is often very expensive, as i heard, as many Chinese traders buy in Malaysia and Taiwan (which bought up Thailand's market for several decades).
Lets also not forget that the western oriented market for Yixing is a tiny segment, and that the vast majority of vintage pots offered are the lowest segment and the start of vintage Yixing pots. 30 US$, i am sorry to say, is small change there in a market that deals with pots worth hundreds, thousands and ten thousands of US$.

Especially for a beginner it is better to buy from trusted vendors, even if for a small premium, and pots where one can be sure to get authentic ware. For good deals i would NOT go to any vendor that i do not know, and whose expertise i doubt, especially if the pots are too cheap. What appears cheap may in the end turn out to be a lot more expensive than what may appear expensive (as we saw here). For deals i stroll through flee markets here in the west, where for example the other day i bought for almost nothing a pot that turned out to be a 70's F1 worth hundreds because the seller had no idea what he sold.
That's a serious bargain. Nice looking pot and well worth repairing the rim. I had similar luck finding a ROC puffed lid from someone that thought it was a toy teapot. Love finding stuff like that.
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Chi-Lin Lu
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:40 am

I agree to learn Yixing pots by photos is difficult, but there are still some features can help us to identify it. For example, the seal, workmanship and shape (mold). Of course, there are so many fakes in the market, it take times to learn all the knowledge about it. I think post your pots in here asking for identify is a good ideal. And we should try to find some reliable vendors in west, don't buy pots from vendors who continuously selling fakes. Encouraging the good vendors and refuse bad vendors.
I will try to post more knowledge or information about Yixing pots when I have time. But post photos here seems has many limitation.
Joint my early tea pot group should also be helpful, I have posted many key features of F1 pot there.
If you like and have an opportunity to visit Taiwan, I welcome you come to my home ( I live in Tainan, Taiwan), I can show you what are 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s shuiping and tell you how to identify it basically.
Last edited by Chi-Lin Lu on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
theredbaron
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:06 am

Chi-Lin Lu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:40 am
I agree to learn Yixing pots by photos is difficult, but there are still some features can help us to identify it. For example, the seal, workmanship and shape (mold). Of course, there are so many fakes in the market, it take times to learn all the knowledge about it. I think post your pots in here asking for identify is a good ideal. And we should try to find some reliable vendors in west, don't buy pots from vendors who continuously selling fakes. Encouraging the good vendors and refuse bad vendors.
I will try to post more knowledge or information about Yixing pots when I have time. But post photos here seems has many limitation.
Joint my early tea pot group should also be helpful, I have posted many key features of F1 pot there.
If you like and have opportunity to visit Taiwan, I welcome you come to my home ( I live in Tainan, Taiwan), I can show you what are 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s shuiping and tell you how to identify it basically.

Thank you very much for that generous offer, and the help you give here and on your facebook group :)

The real tea scene, as i know from K.L., Malaysia, in particular is not on the web, but in person. Sitting together, exchanging views and knowledge, all while drinking tea. Unfortunately this is not possible in the west. For that the substitute is social media, and having trustworthy vendors - of which there are very as few, as many vendors for the western market themselves do not know much and get cheated themselves.
theredbaron
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:07 am

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:38 am


That's a serious bargain. Nice looking pot and well worth repairing the rim. I had similar luck finding a ROC puffed lid from someone that thought it was a toy teapot. Love finding stuff like that.
ROC puffed lid is even a much better deal, a dream pot :)
But that deal made my day, and having bought a surfboard as well ;)
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Chi-Lin Lu
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:16 am

theredbaron wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:06 am
Thank you very much for that generous offer, and the help you give here and on your facebook group :)

The real tea scene, as i know from K.L., Malaysia, in particular is not on the web, but in person. Sitting together, exchanging views and knowledge, all while drinking tea. Unfortunately this is not possible in the west. For that the substitute is social media, and having trustworthy vendors - of which there are very as few, as many vendors for the western market themselves do not know much and get cheated themselves.
You are welcome.
Yes, brewing tea with friends is our daily life. We like to share information and discuss about tea, teapot and everything about tea.
I know there are some vendors here, I believe when more and more people understand teapots, we can find some trustworthy vendors finally.
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Brent D
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:32 am

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:35 am
Brent D wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:21 am
I bought these from edited.
He is edited on tea chat.
Well respected, and knowledgeable enough to know what he was selling me.
You could try asking him for refund on fake F1. Im unsure is $300 was fair but the julunzhu looks like decent modern zhuni. What did he tell you about the those 2 pots that turned out to be false?
I have contacted him. No response yet.
Last edited by pedant on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: mod edit: name removed
theredbaron
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:50 am

Chi-Lin Lu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:16 am

You are welcome.
Yes, brewing tea with friends is our daily life. We like to share information and discuss about tea, teapot and everything about tea.
I know there are some vendors here, I believe when more and more people understand teapots, we can find some trustworthy vendors finally.
When i started drinking Chinese tea in the early 1990's it was almost unknown in the west. I was lucky that i lived in Asia, and found in K.L. with Paul Lim (lim Ping Xiang) a great tea teacher (i was however most definitely not his best student ;) ). Nowadays many more westerners take up Chinese tea, and very enthusiastically. The problem is that tea knowledge is still very difficult to come by in the west, and is very confusing for most. But things improved, and continue to do so.
There are two vendors for tea and Vintage Yixing pots for the western market i always recommend - Essence of Tea based in Malaysia and Chawangshop based in Kunmimg - they sell, when selling Factory 1 Pots, mostly late period F1 pots (also F2 and F5 pots) for OK prices.
What would be needed would be a vendor who specializes in F1 pots, maybe based out of Taiwan, who sells pots to the western market - which i guess would be less high priced and no real rare rare pots, but solidly authentic pots of less costly factory periods, so that western tea drinkers have better access to real pots.

Tea is a great tool to bring people together :)
.m.
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:51 am

I'm not completely convinced that you got scammed. While it is obviously a lot of money, and lot of disappointment for you, the price might be close to what might have originally paid for them. Of course, there is probably a reason why he wanted to unload himself of them. The "F1" pot might be a honest mistake if the clay is a good quality, and the pricing is in line with current EoT prices on their pots. And the "zhuni" looks like a nice pot with a fast pour. I'm not sure how much consensus is there on what a modern zhuni clay is/is not.
I got a pot from edited a long time ago through teachat, and i'm genuinely happy with it (also it was about $60), i've never had any reason to doubt his honesty.
Last edited by pedant on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: mod edit: name removed
.m.
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 am

theredbaron wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:50 am
What would be needed would be a vendor who specializes in F1 pots, maybe based out of Taiwan, who sells pots to the western market - which i guess would be less high priced and no real rare rare pots, but solidly authentic pots of less costly factory periods, so that western tea drinkers have better access to real pots.
Perhaps H.Y.Chen?
http://2088taiwan.com//index.php?route=common/home
theredbaron
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:02 am

.m. wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 am


Perhaps H.Y.Chen?
http://2088taiwan.com//index.php?route=common/home
I have browsed through it the other day when the link was posted here. It's just starting, and has only few pots now but looks to me very promising. I am excited, this may be a great addition :)
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Brent D
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:25 am

.m. wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:51 am
I'm not completely convinced that you got scammed. While it is obviously a lot of money, and lot of disappointment for you, the price might be close to what might have originally paid for them. Of course, there is probably a reason why he wanted to unload himself of them. The "F1" pot might be a honest mistake if the clay is a good quality, and the pricing is in line with current EoT prices on their pots. And the "zhuni" looks like a nice pot with a fast pour. I'm not sure how much consensus is there on what a modern zhuni clay is/is not.
I got a pot from edited a long time ago through teachat, and i'm genuinely happy with it (also it was about $60), i've never had any reason to doubt his honesty.
From my understanding, he knows enough to know that this was not an F1.
I have saved all the info he sent me on the zhuni. it was promised as a Zhauzhuang from the Senchado school in Kyoto.
I think the third pot is slip cast. can anyone confirm?
Last edited by pedant on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: mod edit: name removed
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