How does a westerner learn yixing?

[Brent D]

It has recently been brought to my attention that I was scammed on almost every pot I’ve bought.
I’ve spent hours looking at pictures. All my pots look like the pics to me.
I worked with someone who is well respected in the community. Looks like that was a mistake.
So, if I can’t touch before I buy, every vendor is a liar, and it’s impossible to learn from pics alone, how do we learn?
Please excuse the obvious frustration, but I am sick with disappointment right now

update:
I have received a refund on the F1 that was proven to be fake, and the situation has been resolved amicably.
The other 2 pots are impossible to prove or disprove being that they were sold to me as modern, so anything beyond that is speculation.
It has been decided that there is enough relevant info on pots in general contained in this thread to warrant its continued existence. However, this thread also put into question the integrity of a well-respected member of the community. Again, purely through speculation. For this reason, all mention of this individual has been cleansed of the topic.

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Admin comments:

For clarity and transparency we are listing information for each pot discussed in this thread, plus one not posted but purchased from same vendor. Notes were gathered from the buyer’s various posts in this forum, and in a closed FaceBook group ‘Early Teapots II’ administered by Dr Chi-Lin Lu, a Yixing author and expert.

Note: What questions to ask are an important consideration when learning about yixing clay type, quality, and source. Careful inspection inside of pot is important, including; spout attachment and filter, base and where handle is attached, under the lid, stamp, and close up of clay. If paying a premium for special clay inquire where it was sourced, provenance of pot ownership, and maker.

Teapot #1
Buyer requested and received a refund from vendor on this pot.
Sold as F1 pot.
This pot was discussed in the Early Teapots II group on Facebook. The expert consensus was that this is not an F1 pot;
Dr Lu’s comment “This is not F1 pot, should be made after 90s.“
www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/permali ... 670082462/

Teapot #2
Sold as Zhaozhuang zhuni.
Buyer asked if it was slip cast on this forum;
Consensus on TeaForum was that it was made by a mould.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=249

Teapot #3
Sold as high quality modern handmade hongni.
Buyer asked if it was slip cast in Early Teapots II;
Dr Lu: “I still can’t find the sign of slip cast, my opinion prone to made by mold.”
When asked about the quality of clay used Dr Lu commented, “The color of photos look biased, if it’s real color likes the first one photo should be okay.”
www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/permali ... 729964856/

Teapot #4 (not featured here)
Another F1 pot purchased from same vendor (but not posted in this thread) was identified as authentic F1 on Early Teapots II. www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/permali ... 666747929/

[tealifehk]

Essence of Tea has good pots and you won't get ripped off. That's a good place to start...

[Chadrinkincat]

That's literally tragic!!! That's the biggest risk for western buyers. +1 for EOT's yixing selection.

I saw the last pot you posted on FB. What are the other pots that have turned out to be fake?

[steanze]

It's very sad to hear this. I hope the seller lets you return the pots.
You need to train your recognition skills. You can start from this facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/
Don't just look at the pictures. Once you feel like you learned how to tell the real ones from the fakes, wait for someone to post a new pot. Guess if it's real or fake. Then wait to see the answer of the experts. This way, you can test whether you actually learned without having to buy pots.

I hope this helps!

[ShuShu]

Really sad and terribly frustrating.
I have to say that steanze here saved me quite a few times from buying fakes. But let’s be honest , we cant become experts by following that FB group. It’s all about trust in vendors. (And with all the respect to EoT they are somewhat overpriced) The only F1 pot I purchased is from Emmett and only after I realized he really spends time double checking them....

[Victoria]

It's very sad to hear this. I hope the seller lets you return the pots.
You need to train your recognition skills. You can start from this facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/teapot2/
Don't just look at the pictures. Once you feel like you learned how to tell the real ones from the fakes, wait for someone to post a new pot. Guess if it's real or fake. Then wait to see the answer of the experts. This way, you can test whether you actually learned without having to buy pots.

I hope this helps!

Yes great advise; slowly, patiently learning is the way to go, along with only buying from reputable vendors (although you did that). I would request a refund, with the expert reviews you have received as explanation. Possibly post pots here as further evidence and so others may learn.

[tealifehk]

Really sad and terribly frustrating.
I have to say that steanze here saved me quite a few times from buying fakes. But let’s be honest , we cant become experts by following that FB group. It’s all about trust in vendors. (And with all the respect to EoT they are somewhat overpriced) The only F1 pot I purchased is from Emmett and only after I realized he really spends time double checking them....

If you're buying from a Western-facing vendor you're going to pay a premium (vendors need to eat too), but a lot of people in China pay more for F1 than we do! Emmett does get some nice pots in but many have defects that hurt their value in Taiwan. A lot of Taiwanese collectors aren't interested in anything but perfect F1pots. Emmett's pots are perfectly good for making tea though and a great way to get some nice clay without breaking the bank! I'm not that picky myself and have a few vintage F1 pots with minor defects/chips/whatever and I am very happy to own them!

[Brent D]

Here are the pots

This was to be an f1 $225


This was to be zhuni $300


This was to be a high quality handmade hongni, that was too good for me too psd. $175


I stayed away from eot because he does charge a lot, and all his pots are later era. Plus, the person I bought these from specifically suggested I not buy from eot, because I could get much better pots from him.

[Bok]

Maybe calling out this person who sells fake teapots for not little money in the end might be an idea and service to the community?

How about a study trip to places where you can see real pots? Go to Asia and let the community help you connect with people who own the real deal. You can not learn without touching and smelling a real pot. Only by seeing the difference side by side you can really learn.

Unfortunately you are already learning the hard way by paying tuition…

Not that it helps your frustration, but even in Asia a lot of people who seriously collect, get burned. People just know how to fake.

What might help is a quote from the knowledgable Mr Zhang of Marshaln blog:

I’ve written about using pots before. Basically, they don’t affect the tea nearly as much as most people think, and physical attributes (size, shape, pour speed, etc) are much more important than things like clay.

[Chadrinkincat]

Not cheap pots at all!!
I find it hard to believe this was an honest mistake considering they told you they could get F1 for cheaper. That pot is same price as what EOT would sold the real thing for. They deserve to be called out.

[Bok]

For what it is worth, the shapes are nice enough! If they make decent tea, just enjoy them and await a better opportunity…

[tealifehk]

You just learned some, but the tuition was rather heavy! I lost $1,300 last year on fakes (that were made to replicate F1 pots much more closely) so you're not alone. The fakes are out there man, and lots of them! Experience is really the best way to learn but ideally you don't have to open your wallet too much Don't feel too bad. People get taken on much more expensive pots all the time. A lot of Chinese people have no clue about Yixing either. I see Chinese people buy terrible teapots all the time!

The money you spent would've been much better spent at EoT or with Emmett, but you live and learn. I could've bought some really nice pots for $1,300!

[theredbaron]

It has recently been brought to my attention that I was scammed on almost every pot I’ve bought.
I’ve spent hours looking at pictures. All my pots look like the pics to me.
I worked with someone who is well respected in the community. Looks like that was a mistake.
So, if I can’t touch before I buy, every vendor is a liar, and it’s impossible to learn from pics alone, how do we learn?
Please excuse the obvious frustration, but I am sick with disappointment right now

Yixing is a very difficult subject to learn. Especially for westerners as almost all the literature is in Mandarin. It takes handling loads of pots directly to understand, and for that you will have to live in one of the tea centers in Asia, and you will need hands on tutoring by experts. But - it is not just westerners who get scammed, or get fake pots, Chinese tea drinkers have a similar problem as fake pots often are very well done.
I assume you want to buy pots primarily to drink tea and not to collect. For that as others said, EoT's pots are what they are described, and generally good enough to make good tea. They are not too expensive. Leave the older and more high priced pots to the experts, as the older the pots and the more expensive, the more fakes around.
Another vendor who primarily sells to the western market is Chawangshop, and his pots are as well what they are described as.

While older pots do improve the tea, the difference is not as essential as other factors, such as the tea itself, the water, and your skill level. Of course it would be nice to have Qing or ROC pots. But you can also make excellent tea in late Factory period pots, where you can be sure that you still can get the real thing for reasonable prices.

[theredbaron]

Really sad and terribly frustrating.
I have to say that steanze here saved me quite a few times from buying fakes. But let’s be honest , we cant become experts by following that FB group. It’s all about trust in vendors. (And with all the respect to EoT they are somewhat overpriced) The only F1 pot I purchased is from Emmett and only after I realized he really spends time double checking them....

Sorry, but i do not see EoT as overpriced. I have seen many other vendors for the western market selling F1 pots far more expensive, and at the same time i have seen quite some selling fakes. F1 pots are rising in price, mostly driven by the increased demand from China, and the fact that they have been horded in especially Taiwan for the last decades by speculators.

[ShuShu]

Really sad and terribly frustrating.
I have to say that steanze here saved me quite a few times from buying fakes. But let’s be honest , we cant become experts by following that FB group. It’s all about trust in vendors. (And with all the respect to EoT they are somewhat overpriced) The only F1 pot I purchased is from Emmett and only after I realized he really spends time double checking them....

Sorry, but i do not see EoT as overpriced. I have seen many other vendors for the western market selling F1 pots far more expensive, and at the same time i have seen quite some selling fakes. F1 pots are rising in price, mostly driven by the increased demand from China, and the fact that they have been horded in especially Taiwan for the last decades by speculators.

I said *somewhat* overpriced. The price on many pots is decent but not with all. Check this one for example, the price is almost $190 (138gbp). to the best of my relatively little experience I have seen these pots in $30 less....
https://www.essenceoftea.com/teaware/cl ... -1137.html