Recommendation: Nixing teapot?

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3rdfolder
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Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:56 pm

Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:14 pm

Hello hello!

First post here!

I've just started to explore Chinese teaware. I'd like some guidance. Currently drinking mostly Chinese and Vietnamese greens, green oolongs, and a few roasted oolongs (roasted Ali Shan, and Tie Guan Yin) while using Gaiwan.

I'm looking for a versatile clay to match my teas (yes, even for greens). I've done some research, some readings, some reviews of youtubers. I came across Mei Leaf and Tea House Ghost (not sure I could name them...) speaking about Nixing teapots, that can be good options for greens and green oolongs.

I'd a few second opinions. What are your thoughts on Nixing clay? For greens? Green oolongs? Roasted oolongs? Where can I find trustworthy sources?

Thank you for sharing your tea knowledge!
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Balthazar
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Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:06 am

3rdfolder wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:14 pm
Hello hello!

First post here!

I've just started to explore Chinese teaware. I'd like some guidance. Currently drinking mostly Chinese and Vietnamese greens, green oolongs, and a few roasted oolongs (roasted Ali Shan, and Tie Guan Yin) while using Gaiwan.

I'm looking for a versatile clay to match my teas (yes, even for greens). I've done some research, some readings, some reviews of youtubers. I came across Mei Leaf and Tea House Ghost (not sure I could name them...) speaking about Nixing teapots, that can be good options for greens and green oolongs.

I'd a few second opinions. What are your thoughts on Nixing clay? For greens? Green oolongs? Roasted oolongs? Where can I find trustworthy sources?

Thank you for sharing your tea knowledge!
I got my first nixing pot last autumn (my other pots for Chinese teas are all yixing). So while I haven't owned one for very long, I've actually used it quite a lot. My general impressions are these, (do keep in mind that pot sample size = 1 here):

- They work well for most heicha, fucha and liubao in particular. My nixing pot has become my favorite for brewing fucha.
- They work well for some roasted oolongs (I've had good results with Taiwanese roasted oolongs)
- They can be useful for reducing the astringency in teas, e.g. certain young sheng puers

Other good things about nixing pots is of course that they are generally speaking inexpensive compared to yixing, and that fakes + dubious clay claims (afaik) are less of an issue. Other, more subjective, pluses for me are their simple but elegant look and smooth textured clay.

I haven't brewed green tea or green oolongs in my pot yet. Reasons being: 1) For green tea I pretty much only drink Japanese, and I can't imagine brewing my sencha in the nixing pot. 2) Generally speaking not a fan of green oolongs, so I don't have any at hand.

... but my guess would be that a simple porcelain gaiwan would be a much better fit for these teas, particularly the green oolongs. I assume you already own one, but if not a gaiwan should really be the first piece of teaware anyone buys imo.

... and as always, don't forget the sage reminder from the Daode Jing - it's the empty space within that is the most important part of any pot, and this is something you get regardless of which clay you go for :mrgreen:
Clay kneaded
Forms a Pot.
The Emptiness within,
The Non-Being,
Makes the Pot Useful.
3rdfolder
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Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:56 pm

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:31 pm

Thank you for your help

Good point on Nixing being less expensive, probably because it is still new in the teapot industry, compared to Yixing. Less popular, less demand, less forgery also.

This also means that Nixing artists are probably less known than Yixing's. I always ask sellers if they can tell where they source their Nixing pots, but they often don't really know. The pots are stamped, but the artist/studio is unknown. It's a way for me to pay respect to the artist. It further enhances the experience of tea tasting, at least for me it is.

I also like the uneven color pattern on Nixing clay. It reminds me much of an urushi lacquer finish on Japanese goods, the Aka-tamenuri finish.

I already have porcelaine, but I wanted to explore the clay avenue. Not planning on reserving a pot for a specific tea. Mostly looking for 1-2 allrounder clay to match most of my teas. As you said, it is the inside that matters the most! 🙂
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wave_code
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:50 am

I haven't tried nixing for those types of tea, because as @Balthazar says its really known best for fermented teas - but like with all things clay the rule should be there are no hard rules and if you can its always best to see what you like most for yourself. I find nixing tends to be slightly but not overly muting to things like storage flavors, and generally increases body/mouthfeel, which if you want that for greener teas it could work nicely. I don't know how it might affect lighter flavors or those kind of aromas. Main thing I see as a drawback could be that nixing like jianshui tends to be thicker walled being wheelthrown and the nature of the clay, so for teas that could overcook easily going for good porcelain is probably still a better choice. then again some people seem to really like jianshui for young sheng, which is a tea I can see getting overly astringent super easily, so who know. but, I think its really nice and potentially versatile clay, and being on the accessible side price wise you don't run a huge risk. also I don't find it to be super absorbent clay, it seasons very slowly, which affords you the ability to play around with it a lot with different teas without having to constantly reset it. I could see them being better suited for roasted oolongs - I wonder for teas that are maybe too rough or over roasted if it might mellow them out - could be a very worthwhile experiment.

Yes, the kiln change effects in Nixing can be really wonderful, and its one of the most desirable things in that type of pottery. I also really love the marbled/lacquer type effect. it actually reminds me a lot of the kind of red/brown/black shading you get when you use black polish on oxblood boots. I've been trying to look more into Nixing history and development and changes - I hope to get some of my findings and some photos up on here soon in more detail, but its tough when you don't know Chinese. If you know what to look for/where to look there is of course also vintage nixing, which can have its ups and downs. I've been looking to get and try more pots also to try and determine how much variance there is in the clay and its behavior/processing/firing from different studios and time periods, since just like yixing I'm wondering how noticeable those effects are.

For vendors while I don't think/know that other particular vendors are bad or not as good who can't say the maker, I can say that Mud and Leaves is a great place to look. Especially if you want to actually know the artisan since they get pots from a few different artists and include the name and some information with the pot. The pots they have are well made, and if you want to find one with nice kiln change I feel you can see in their photos ones they get tend to show that result a lot nicer than others. They also get wood fired nixing pots, which are more expensive due to the firing, but from what I've heard do behave a little differently. There are a couple studios that also sell directly, and I haven't had a chance to compare their quality/craftsmanship yet, but I hope to in the near future. The main reason certain vendors probably can't say who made their pots is because they also don't want to tell you where you can just buy them directly ;) Chawang is another good place to look.
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Balthazar
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:54 am

3rdfolder wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:31 pm
Good point on Nixing being less expensive, probably because it is still new in the teapot industry, compared to Yixing. Less popular, less demand, less forgery also.

This also means that Nixing artists are probably less known than Yixing's. I always ask sellers if they can tell where they source their Nixing pots, but they often don't really know. The pots are stamped, but the artist/studio is unknown. It's a way for me to pay respect to the artist. It further enhances the experience of tea tasting, at least for me it is.
I also believe nixing clay is more "uniform" across the board, compared to yixing, and that the main variable in terms of variation in the effect a nixing pot has on a tea is firing method rather than the base material itself. That only my guess though. There is some rather expensive nixing pots too, but the difference in price seems to come down to craftsman (with some pots featuring really elaborate carvings) rather than clay.
wave_code wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:50 am
I've been trying to look more into Nixing history and development and changes - I hope to get some of my findings and some photos up on here soon in more detail, but its tough when you don't know Chinese.
Looking forward to see what you can find, there really is a dearth of information. I haven't searched around too much, but even in Chinese it seems to be hard to find good information that really goes into the details (although I'm sure it exists, probably just my Baidu-gongfu that is lacking...)
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steanze
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:12 am

I don't like Nixing. I didn't get good results with almost any teas aside from heicha and lower-end heavily roasted oolongs. For greens, I would recommend a thin porcelain gaiwan or teapot.
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wave_code
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:42 am

another thing to keep in mind here- vendors are vendors and they want to sell stuff, particularly things they can get and at good price point/mark up. I don't know when they have more on offer if the prices are pretty uniform or if its just these particular pots left, but looking real quick at Mei Leaf those pots to me look way overpriced for what they are. Its come up around Pu a lot and been argued (or... defended) by people over and over, but if you want bang for your buck Mei Leaf is probably not the place to go. to my eyes they also cater to a part of the market that is going to find a nice clay teapot much sexier than a gaiwan or porcelain pot and willing to shell out one but not decent porcelain when that might be much better for their tea. I think Nixing, modern CZ (which can be quite different), and Jianshui all are kind of on a hype train right now too as being "secret" or "better" clays for value than Yixing, which they aren't. Mainly because they are just different, but also they aren't secret in any way, and also a lot of the prices from bigger vendors aren't justified IMO. Taking Jianshui as an example too: I prefer pots without much adornment - I want to pay for good clay/ergonomics over elaborate carving, so paying $100+ for a jianshui pot seems silly to me - the more inexpensive pots Crimson Lotus seems to get time to time seem more reasonable to me for example. Some Jianshui is much nicer looking to me than others, but its a type of teaware that is very much in its infancy compared to Yixing, fine porcelain, so on... to me a lot of the skill in form isn't quite there yet- classic shapes don't reproduce that well in my eyes, but there aren't many pots I've seen yet that really have that look of balance, taste, and good form you see in other tea ware. To me that affects what a reasonable price is in addition to the clay. After all you can get a good entry level modern Yixing from EoT, Mud and Leaves, or Yinchen Studio for the around the same or sometimes even less than what some people want for some pretty tacky Jianshui pots.

I can see how nixing could be "versatile", but any clay could be under a jack of all trades master of none approach. while it seems to me that a lot of early nixing starting in the 50s and 60s was produced probably to try and rival yixing clay (generally unsuccessfully), you can also see why it excels at what it does (IMO) - humid/storage teas like shu, liu bao, and other hei cha. Guangxi is a humid area and where liu bao is produced - though a lot of it is/was exported and was really taken up in Malaysia as its second home to me it follows that the conditions that produce that tea also influence the regional clay, and also that people who produced local teaware would make things that work well with the properties of that tea. Also generally the clay for Nixing comes from the two sides of the river, one side being softer and the other harder and blended together, which is a very different process from old mined Yixing ore. Same could go for classic CZ tea and teaware - the processing, firing, shape and size of the pots really cater to the local favored tea. It doesn't mean you can't get nice results using those clays with other teas, but something like a green rolled oolong or bi luo chun... I can't think of anything more the opposite than an aged liu bao. I don't green teas like that often except when they are fresh in the spring, but then I usually prefer them in glass even, maybe porcelain.

there is a lot of very nice porcelain ware out there, and you can also look into vintage porcelain as well where you can find nice pieces at quite good prices if you know what to look for. but if you want to explore Nixing because you appreciate the clay and aesthetics, do yourself a favor and get yourself a few different good humid hei cha too and see what it can do for those teas.
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Balthazar
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:16 pm

@wave_code: Agreed. Seeing how you can get something like this for the same or less than most of the nixing pots available from western vendors, I have no doubt where I would spend my money. Personally I'd much rather have a hongni pot as an all-rounder than a nixing one. Unless all you drink is heicha. And maybe even then...
faj
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:03 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:16 pm
Seeing how you can get something like this for the same or less than most of the nixing pots available from western vendors, I have no doubt where I would spend my money.
I would be curious : has anyone actually purchased one of these? I have been playing with the idea of getting a couple of them, as the only Yixing pot I own is a modern Zhuni. Between EoT usually not having them all in stock at the same time, me having difficulty choosing between their two slightly different sizes, and not having heard much first-hand accounts, I have not been in any hurry to pull the trigger.
McScooter
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:07 pm

faj wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:03 pm
Balthazar wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:16 pm
Seeing how you can get something like this for the same or less than most of the nixing pots available from western vendors, I have no doubt where I would spend my money.
I would be curious : has anyone actually purchased one of these? I have been playing with the idea of getting a couple of them, as the only Yixing pot I own is a modern Zhuni. Between EoT usually not having them all in stock at the same time, me having difficulty choosing between their two slightly different sizes, and not having heard much first-hand accounts, I have not been in any hurry to pull the trigger.
I posted a photo of my 90ml EoT hongni pot the other day in the main yixing thread. Got it a month or so ago. Originally intended to be for yancha, but have been using it with whatever high mountain tea I have left with good results, though it is far from "seasoned." I can take some more photos. So far so good. I had a session with some Jin Xuan oolong yesterday that was quite nice. As I mentioned in the main thread, my only real gripe is ergonomics. When filled to the brim, there's only one grip that I'm able to use with the pot, and that's the "pinch grip" in that photo. With my other pots, I can use my pointer finger inside of the handle, my middle finger underneath the handle, and thumb on the air hole and pour. Can't really do that with this shuiping. It's a little slippery and wants to rotate downward.

However, that's an ergonomics thing. I have no doubt that the clay, for the price, is quality clay and as Balthazar said, I would certainly pick up one of these over a nixing as a first pot. Here's a repost of the photo. I kept an eye on them when they first launched, and as I also pondered the buy decision. They have been fairly quick sellers from what I can tell.
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Balthazar
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Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:14 pm

McScooter wrote: As I mentioned in the main thread, my only real gripe is ergonomics. When filled to the brim, there's only one grip that I'm able to use with the pot, and that's the "pinch grip" in that photo. With my other pots, I can use my pointer finger inside of the handle, my middle finger underneath the handle, and thumb on the air hole and pour. Can't really do that with this shuiping. It's a little slippery and wants to rotate downward.
You're braver than me, I always do a two-handed pour (one hand on the handle, the other securing the lid). Nice looking pot, good to hear it's performing according to expectations!
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friso
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Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:47 pm

My two-cents... I agree with Balthazar and McScooter on their EoT entry level yixing recommandation. Price to quality ratio seems great, and pretty much invalidate the argument for purchasing Nixing as "tuition safe" pots.

That said, having played with Mud&Leaves nixings for over two years now, I do recommand you pick one ! In my experience, they don't really mute aromas, less so than zinis anyway. But they do round out texture a little. Personally, I really like them for fuchas, but also sometimes younger shengs, black teas and light roasted oolongs. For anything more fermented, I would still stick to yixings ; and for anything lighter (green oolongs), to either porcelain or hongnis. Of course, this comes down to personal tastes in the end. The M&L owner, for example, sell the nixings as zhunis / less muting clays alternative, and recommends them for greener oolongs.

On a related topic, I feel jianshuis are worth trying out. Especially if you are a shou puerh drinker, they can be fun. And just like with nixings, quality seems to be even and prices affordable.
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