TeaForum.org

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 05, 2023 8:33 am

It’s been a while that I got one of these… simple lines, reduced beauty, first love.

A classic, doesn't get old. Nice shot.

So, new vendor has popped up recently. MikaZuki TeaHouse. They seems to focus on F1 and other pots exported to japan, bought by them second hand, then marketed to a western audience. I found out about them on Instagram but they seem to have presence elsewhere as well. Anywho, I've been pretty convinced with their F1 offerings as far as my authentication skills are concerned, but not wanting to take that leap quite yet, I picked up a GongJu 贡局 teapot. To my understanding these were Thailand exports up until 1930. Now I don't believe, nor did they ever claim or advertise, that this pot is quite that old and we came to the mutual agreement of most likely a replica. It's a 三足思亭壶 or 3 legged SiTing Teapot. Quite obviously half handmade at the very least, with a super present 底片, joinery and tooling. I'm quite satisfied with the pot but am interested in others opinions. The clay is broadly HongNi, lighter in color so most likely a 小红泥. If anyone wants to throw out age estimates that would be great too!

Cheers

Yes, it is a modern replica.

@servania they were asking a lot of questions in a fb ID pots group about their “factory pots”. Not all of the feedback made it over to their sales pitches afterwards…

Bok wrote: ↑

Fri May 12, 2023 6:37 pm

servania they were asking a lot of questions in a fb ID pots group about their “factory pots”. Not all of the feedback made it over to their sales pitches afterwards…

Yeh the sales front is fanciful but the conversations are a lot more grounded lots of “I’m not really sure but here’s the consensus reached by the people I’ve talked to” overall I would say nothing malicious just newer to the market.

Learned something interesting. Outside of yixing in neighboring Zhejiang, there is an area called chang xing (長興) that also has purple clay. And it has been a practice for some vendors to sell Chang xing purple clay as yixing clay. Apparently it is also blended into yixing zini. Such blending with clay outside of yixing (from many other regions) has been practiced for a long time apparently. It is possible that many modern zini has mixed in high proportion of non yixing clay. Chang xing is quite close to yixing so may be from the same vein of ore. Other places are farther away

Hey guys!

Hope you are all having a lovely day. I’m in need of some help by way of identifying and authenticating this Yixing pot.

I’ve been practicing Gongfu-Cha for 7 or so years, I’ve built up a very small collection of Yixing ware including 4 or so teapots. By no means an expert on the topic but like to think I can identify a ‘good’ pot.

I recently acquired this particular pot. The clay looks high quality with a lot of texture and minerals. Nice little specks of black and shiny mica etc. The colour is nice and natural and to me, looks like genuine Yixing clay.

The inscribed poem and bamboo drawing are signed by famous poet, calligrapher and potter; Zi Zhi 子治. The stamp is a direct match for match with a pot in the British Museum, please see below:

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... ranks-2450

Yang Youlan is of course one of the foremost famed masters of the Mid Qing Dynasty. Obviously I’d usually write the pot off as a fake and be done with it, but the unusually high quality clay and the accuracy of the stamp has me confused.

Would people really go to such lengths to fake a teapot?

I’ve included some photos. As you can see - the craftsmanship does seem a bit odd. The pot is slightly misshapen and the lid is a little messy. The calligraphy also seems a little simple.

Please help me figure out what’s going on with this pot and if it’s real or fake. Many thanks to you all!

"I recently acquired this particular pot. The clay looks high quality with a lot of texture and minerals. Nice little specks of black and shiny mica etc. The colour is nice and natural and to me, looks like genuine Yixing clay."

You can take this with a grain of salt, er um mica, if you like, but specks of shiny mica to my mind would indicate that the pot is relatively recently produced.

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:38 pm

Would people really go to such lengths to fake a teapot?

The answer is yes! People do go great lengths to fake teapots, porcelains, and in general antiques. Hearing the fame of the artisan and looking at the inner tool marks and outer carvings, I would assume it's a copy. In the Chinese market, since not everyone can own a genuine piece from a master level artisan, some people are willing to settle with a high end copy. High end copies are by no mean cheap, some of those high end copies can be more expensive than the typical fully hand made and genuine yixing clay pots we see in the Western market.

DailyTX wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:34 pm

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:38 pm

Would people really go to such lengths to fake a teapot?

The answer is yes! People do go great lengths to fake teapots, porcelains, and in general antiques. Hearing the fame of the artisan and looking at the inner tool marks and outer carvings, I would assume it's a copy. In the Chinese market, since not everyone can own a genuine piece from a master level artisan, some people are willing to settle with a high end copy. High end copies are by no mean cheap, some of those high end copies can be more expensive than the typical fully hand made and genuine yixing clay pots we see in the Western market.

Thanks! Super helpful and interesting.

Yes and one wonders instead of viewing them as ‘fakes’ perhaps they are more in homage to the originals and their creators?

My only question is - how can the chop really be that similar to the teapot in the British Museum? It looks like the exact same stamp to me

gacchatu wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:19 pm

"I recently acquired this particular pot. The clay looks high quality with a lot of texture and minerals. Nice little specks of black and shiny mica etc. The colour is nice and natural and to me, looks like genuine Yixing clay."

You can take this with a grain of salt, er um mica, if you like, but specks of shiny mica to my mind would indicate that the pot is relatively recently produced.

Thanks

Yeah apologies for my lack of insight. I mean it has shiny specks throughout... not sure what specific mineral that generally relates to?

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:28 pm

DailyTX wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:34 pm

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:38 pm

Would people really go to such lengths to fake a teapot?

The answer is yes! People do go great lengths to fake teapots, porcelains, and in general antiques. Hearing the fame of the artisan and looking at the inner tool marks and outer carvings, I would assume it's a copy. In the Chinese market, since not everyone can own a genuine piece from a master level artisan, some people are willing to settle with a high end copy. High end copies are by no mean cheap, some of those high end copies can be more expensive than the typical fully hand made and genuine yixing clay pots we see in the Western market.

Thanks! Super helpful and interesting.

Yes and one wonders instead of viewing them as ‘fakes’ perhaps they are more in homage to the originals and their creators?

My only question is - how can the chop really be that similar to the teapot in the British Museum? It looks like the exact same stamp to me

@Dhammabum The chop has the same characters but it's not that same chop as the British Museum one. With the advancement in technology, rubber chops are commonly use to replicate older chops in the last 20-30 years. There are experts who can identify chops made from different materials such as metal, stone, wood, rubbers and other materials. There are also experts who can tell chops and carvings based on calligraphy skills. Sadly I am neither haha

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:28 pm

My only question is - how can the chop really be that similar to the teapot in the British Museum? It looks like the exact same stamp to me

It looks as if the chop is printed from the exact picture from BM. If you compare it with another photo of the same stamp from BM taken under a different angle then it looks less exact...

gacchatu wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:19 pm

You can take this with a grain of salt, er um mica, if you like, but specks of shiny mica to my mind would indicate that the pot is relatively recently produced.

The lack of mica is one of the characteristics of 60s - mid 70s F1 hongni, but ordinary LQER zini can have plenty of mica specs.

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:28 pm

DailyTX wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:34 pm

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:38 pm

Would people really go to such lengths to fake a teapot?

The answer is yes! People do go great lengths to fake teapots, porcelains, and in general antiques. Hearing the fame of the artisan and looking at the inner tool marks and outer carvings, I would assume it's a copy. In the Chinese market, since not everyone can own a genuine piece from a master level artisan, some people are willing to settle with a high end copy. High end copies are by no mean cheap, some of those high end copies can be more expensive than the typical fully hand made and genuine yixing clay pots we see in the Western market.

Thanks! Super helpful and interesting.

Yes and one wonders instead of viewing them as ‘fakes’ perhaps they are more in homage to the originals and their creators?

My only question is - how can the chop really be that similar to the teapot in the British Museum? It looks like the exact same stamp to me

I think the word ‘replica’ is applicable for pots like this rather than fake. It is the word I use when discussing pots made to look antique but were crafted in a more recent era. While some were intentionally meant to deceive others were replicated for those who desire but cannot own the original pieces.

Regarding the seal, I see no reason for it to be a near exact copy of the one in the British Museum. And that assumes the one in the British Museum is authentic. There are many inauthentic ceramics in museums.

DailyTX wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:02 pm

Dhammabum wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:28 pm

DailyTX wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:34 pm

The answer is yes! People do go great lengths to fake teapots, porcelains, and in general antiques. Hearing the fame of the artisan and looking at the inner tool marks and outer carvings, I would assume it's a copy. In the Chinese market, since not everyone can own a genuine piece from a master level artisan, some people are willing to settle with a high end copy. High end copies are by no mean cheap, some of those high end copies can be more expensive than the typical fully hand made and genuine yixing clay pots we see in the Western market.

Thanks! Super helpful and interesting.

Yes and one wonders instead of viewing them as ‘fakes’ perhaps they are more in homage to the originals and their creators?

My only question is - how can the chop really be that similar to the teapot in the British Museum? It looks like the exact same stamp to me

Dhammabum The chop has the same characters but it's not that same chop as the British Museum one. With the advancement in technology, rubber chops are commonly use to replicate older chops in the last 20-30 years. There are experts who can identify chops made from different materials such as metal, stone, wood, rubbers and other materials. There are also experts who can tell chops and carvings based on calligraphy skills. Sadly I am neither haha

You’ve helped no end! Really appreciate it