Yixing

User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:12 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:01 pm
Now... speaking of zhu ni, surprisingly thick clay, etc... this seems as good a time as ever to post my other "Is it fake?"
Question is, fake what? It is a real teapot. It looks like it comes from somewhere around Yixing. It may be Zhuni, but the surface texture, makes me think it is more likely Hongni or a blend.

Also your testament that it brews Liu-An and heavy roast yancha to a pleasant result, is aggravating evidence that it might indeed not be Zhuni. Assuming that your heavy roast yancha is not premium material, Zhuni would have put at least some unpleasantness in the foreground. Again, taste is personal, so you might simply not perceive it as such.

As to age, it is certainly modern made, while some attempts are being made to replicate earlier designs.

Andrew S wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:01 pm
Not because I don't 'trust' the person from whom I got it, but rather because I don't trust the price that I got it for.
This is very good thinking. Things that seem to good to be true, usually aren't. But in my book, if the price corresponds to the quality, it's absolutely fine.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:20 pm

Thanks @Bok. I think the liu an and heavily-roasted yan cha is more a reflection of a personal preference of mine rather than porosity as such, since I love both types of tea.

And by heavily-roasted, I guess I mean as opposed to medium-roasted yan cha where the leaves reveal more of their original colour after the session is over. I would call the teas I've been trying from Zhang Hui Chun (张回春) as 'heavily roasted' but not 'too heavily-roasted', if that makes sense.

Andrew
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:35 pm

@Andrew S in my book any quality roasted tea will still show some green in the spent leaves. On the opposite spectrum you have the likes of Fukien Tea Company with roast to death black brown leaves.
Mark-S
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:21 pm

Interesting photos and information on a Yixing teapot from the Desaru shipwreck. ;)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/gongfuc ... 3/?app=fbl

I hope it's okay to post this.
User avatar
TeaTotaling
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:08 pm
Location: Ohio

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:53 pm

steanze wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:48 pm
TeaTotaling wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:37 pm

Thanks Bok, exactly the insight I was after. So, it's not necessarily a defining characteristic. As to be expected, many variables and variations within the same category. The piece I handled was made by 许福军, who is recognized as a Zhuni specialist. I suppose if one were to have access to genuine, original ore aged Zhuni, it might be him. I often read stories about Zhuni being extinct, and vendors passing Hongni off as Zhuni. I'm sure it's rare to have access to the original ore these days, if it's in fact still being mined, but I imagine the right people might have a stash of original ore aging away. Available only to a tight circle of artists.
+1 old zhuni pots can be thin or thick.

Zhuni ore is not extinct, it is still being mined. It is actually not that rare as an ore. Zhuni from the Zhaozhuang mine is harder to get, I don't think it's currently being mined (but ask Youzi for the details about current mining activities). However, the details of the processing method that was used in late Qing / early Republic are not fully known, and modern pieces usually don't turn out quite like the antiques, either because of the additives used, or the sifting process, or the wood fire kiln vs gas kiln differences.
Cool, thanks for the insight @steanze! I'm curious if those who have handled a number of different Zhunis; like yourself, @Bok, @OCTO, and anyone else, notice any defining characteristics that separate high quality Zhuni from ordinary Zhuni?
Chadrinkincat
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:16 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:19 pm

@Andrew S

You should ask for a refund since this pot is definitely modern. Not worth anywhere near $850
User avatar
TeaTotaling
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:08 pm
Location: Ohio

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:40 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:12 pm
Andrew S wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:01 pm
Now... speaking of zhu ni, surprisingly thick clay, etc... this seems as good a time as ever to post my other "Is it fake?"
Question is, fake what? It is a real teapot. It looks like it comes from somewhere around Yixing. It may be Zhuni, but the surface texture, makes me think it is more likely Hongni or a blend.
What best characterizes the surface texture of Zhuni?
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:00 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:19 pm
Andrew S

You should ask for a refund since this pot is definitely modern. Not worth anywhere near $850
This was 850?????
Chadrinkincat
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:16 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:26 pm

Bok wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:00 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:19 pm
Andrew S

You should ask for a refund since this pot is definitely modern. Not worth anywhere near $850
This was 850?????
I just assumed it was this one but I could be wrong.
https://houdefinetea.com/product/early- ... zhai-80cc/
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:36 am

@Chadrinkincat ah yes, that looks like the exact same pot...

@TeaTotaling Zhuni textures as I mentioned above, are diverse... no one fits all answers.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:44 am

“That’s the one, officer!”

I didn’t want to refer to the vendor unless it was a clear fake or replica, and that seems to be the consensus at the moment. Thanks @Bok and @Chadrinkincat for the feedback. Anyone else’s comments are welcome.

I should probably clarify that when I said that “I don't trust the price that I got it for”, I meant that I had initially assumed that US$850 was a fair (perhaps low) ‘Western internet price’ for an ROC zhu ni pot, until I found out that this particular workshop seems to have a reputation which would put a real version of this pot a few times about what this one was selling for. There’s one on eBay, but it’s not mine, and I have no idea of its authenticity, so I won’t link to it. Initially, I was hoping that it might be a zhu ni reference pot for me, but after I discovered its history, I was hoping that this was at least one of those Taiwanese fake / replica pots from the 90s or 2000s. Obviously, US$850 is a bit much for a modern fake / replica …

Does anyone have a photo of an authentic example of a pot from this workshop, or know someone who might? As I understand it, the genuine one was an ROC export pot to Japan, but others around here would know better than me.

If it is a fake, then it’s a sad day for the Western teapot community to learn that we can’t even safely assume that something on Hou De is what it purports to be. Of course, in saying all of this, I’m not suggesting that Guang knew it to be a fake or that he was anything other than honest but mistaken (again, assuming it to be a fake).

My mistake is probably a good reminder that the question of whether you ‘trust’ a vendor is only the beginning of the inquiry. You can ‘trust’ that someone is not dishonest without necessarily trusting their skill in detecting fakes, just like how I ‘trust’ some vendors to sell good quality authentic wu long without trusting their ability to sell a genuine old pu er.

And it’s probably a reminder that every pot out there could be a tuition pot unless proven otherwise, regardless of the vendor’s reputation. We learn from talking, studying and, most of all, playing with teapots, but the difficulty for people outside Asia is that it's hard to get a genuine old pot that we can start playing with and learning about.

Now… can anyone offer some pointers to the rest of us about what stands out here as being clearly irregular? I’d guess that the inner handle joint looks like an ‘over the top’ imitation of the real thing, while the hole for the spout looks a little too clean, and that the craftsmanship is a little too precise. Any thoughts?

Maybe I'll post a comparison of this clay next to the ZAG zhu ni pot.

Andrew
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:23 am

@Andrew S in that case if that was supposed to be an ROC era pot that there are too many things wrong with it to even start with... proportions, clay, details, inside body and lid, seal chop, nothing fits the bill in my view. It screams new even from a distant glance... you are right 850 would have been too cheap to be true for a real antique Zhuni.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:27 am

Something more positive: I’ve finally closed a hole in my collection of Biandengs, an item I have been looking for a while now: it’s a 1958-60 Factory 1 Hongni. Why so precise you might ask? This particular design was only done for the two first years of F1, before it got replaced by the more common other one. There are two or three in Dr Lus book for those who have it.

It had a few hairlines when I got it, so I sent it to get some staples and just picked it up last night.
Attachments
56C1DC32-26D4-4FBD-8990-4FB8DF9A7A11.jpeg
56C1DC32-26D4-4FBD-8990-4FB8DF9A7A11.jpeg (134.28 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
F667E0BC-946B-4299-8C1D-714BAEA7A8E1.jpeg
F667E0BC-946B-4299-8C1D-714BAEA7A8E1.jpeg (157.75 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
499D7294-CC7D-4EF9-A499-8B8421EA4838.jpeg
499D7294-CC7D-4EF9-A499-8B8421EA4838.jpeg (104.15 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
DD0CC79C-BE4C-44F6-AC45-3B0B22557A62.jpeg
DD0CC79C-BE4C-44F6-AC45-3B0B22557A62.jpeg (109.83 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
5DE8489B-D2AF-4264-B03D-414854954998.jpeg
5DE8489B-D2AF-4264-B03D-414854954998.jpeg (91.35 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:28 am

For educational purposes, here a comparison with the design that followed it, 60s period.
Attachments
50855B4F-AE16-4F90-98AE-A845FAA86A0D.jpeg
50855B4F-AE16-4F90-98AE-A845FAA86A0D.jpeg (107.52 KiB) Viewed 3155 times
User avatar
Victoria
Admin
Posts: 3043
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Contact:

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:30 am

Beautiful proportion, scale, form, clay and repair @Bok. Thanks for comparison as well..sleek
Post Reply