Yixing

[steanze]

One I know who got one, sold it a while afterwards, so...

I have one of Petr's Yixings, it makes good tea. Doesn't develop much of a patina though.

[Bok]

In the end does it even matter what exactly Yixing is?



There is no Yixing.

Tea doesn't exist.

We are not here.

.

[steanze]

So the late 50s slip cast hongni biandeng is not a Yixing pot?

Ha, excellent point!

heh, that's what always happens with definitions
For instance, what proportion of it has to be made of Yixing clay? 100%? Then moulvni pots are not Yixing. Even pots that are mostly zini and have a bit of moulvni are not Yixing (like those 3 friends of winter F1 pots). Even some Ming pots are mixed with quartz sand, so those would not be Yixing either. if some amount can be made of something other than Yixing clay, how much?
Also, what is Yixing clay exactly - what are the geographic boundaries? What about a chunk of the same vein of ore that's just outside city limits? There is no way to win

[Andrew S]

Definitions and categories give me false comfort, and false comfort is just as good as any other kind of comfort...

Andrew

[LeoFox]

What are the critical attributes that make a pot yixing. And in critical, I mean, without X attribute, then pot cannot be called yixing.

Is it the source of the clay?

Is it the method in which the pot is made?

Is it the location and history of the workshop/artist?


In other words, can these be yixing? -

Slab built pot with non yixing clay by yixing artist?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist?

Slab built pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist and workshop in Beijing?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by yixing artist in yixing?

The view of concepts as definitions was popular in the 17-18th centuries, but the idea that there are necessary and sufficient conditions to define concepts has been criticized by Wittgenstein and others, and the search for definitions is now typically considered as a hopeless task (i.e. see this https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/concepts).

For instance, what about a pot made with clay mined from another planet that happens to have the exact chemical composition as Yixing clay, made by an artisan born in Yixing and raised there inside a room that simulates the climate in Dubai (and s/he never left that room), with a virtual window showing the view from a window in Dubai? You can create arbitrarily complicated scenarios. Whatever definition you come up with there will be problems with it.

Steanze, I was clearly being rhetorical and simply trying to engage discussion. Bringing out abstract linguistic arguments from philosophy of logic and implying my approach is quaint and antiquated is uncalled for.

More and more I feel people take yixing too seriously. If it is just some clay from this location and worked by locals using a slab method - then so be it


As for the importance of definitions - despite these logical paradoxes, they are still foundational to the workings and structures of many technologies and legal systems.

[steanze]

Steanze, I was clearly being rhetorical and simply trying to engage discussion. Bringing out abstract linguistic arguments from philosophy of logic and implying my approach is quaint and antiquated is uncalled for.

More and more I feel people take yixing too seriously. If it is just some clay from this location and worked by locals using a slab method - then so be it

As for the importance of definitions - despite these logical paradoxes, they are still foundational to the workings and structures of many technologies and legal systems.

I did not mean to imply that your approach is antiquated, it just seemed like a good opportunity to have a chat about why these questions are hard. We can discuss what makes a teapot good, or in what ways we appreciate teapots, or what properties are specific to Yixing teapots vs what properties are more general, and many other questions. The question "what makes a pot yixing" is very difficult to answer, and it does not usually lead to productive discussion. I have seen this question being asked many times, and I have never seen something useful or constructive come out of it. But maybe today is the special day on which something will come of it.

It clearly isn't "clay from this location and worked by locals using a slab method", because there are teapots that are not built using a slab method and are generally agreed to be Yixing teapots. Trying to come up with a different definition will not work. In practice what matters is that there are very few disagreements on whether a specific pot is Yixing or not, and even when there are disagreements we can continue talking about the pot in question even if we can't determine whether or not it should be categorized as a Yixing pot.

[Andrew S]

For my part, I was surprised to read that some early Ming pots that have been excavated over the years aren't quite Yixing or zisha pots, since they were made with mixed clay and different methods. I suppose the ambit of what is meant by Yixing teapots can change over time as well.

It seems surprising to me (as a non-potter and non-expert) that people can generally agree on what is or is not zini, zhuni, hong ni or other types of clay, but they can't agree on the limits of what constitutes zisha more generally.

If there's some way of understanding what is or isn't properly zisha, and the 1958 teapots are a clear exception to the slab-built part of Bok's description, then we seem to be getting fairly close to a working definition for the purpose of, say, vendors describing their teapots accurately.

But perhaps the usefulness of definitions and categories in my background is causing me to over-simplify the issue.

Andrew

[olivierd]

I did not mean to imply that your approach is antiquated, it just seemed like a good opportunity to have a chat about why these questions are hard. We can discuss what makes a teapot good, or in what ways we appreciate teapots, or what properties are specific to Yixing teapots vs what properties are more general, and many other questions. The question "what makes a pot yixing" is very difficult to answer, and it does not usually lead to productive discussion. I have seen this question being asked many times, and I have never seen something useful or constructive come out of it. But maybe today is the special day on which something will come of it.

It clearly isn't "clay from this location and worked by locals using a slab method", because there are teapots that are not built using a slab method and are generally agreed to be Yixing teapots. Trying to come up with a different definition will not work. In practice what matters is that there are very few disagreements on whether a specific pot is Yixing or not, and even when there are disagreements we can continue talking about the pot in question even if we can't determine whether or not it should be categorized as a Yixing pot.

I subcribe to this view, yet the complexity of defining yixingware is due to the perspectives : yixing as a functional teapot is related to the clay, the location, technics and skilled local craftmenship. I am quoting Chunfang Pan (Yixing Pottery) : shape, clay, fire, craftsmanship, lines and utility. Now yixing as an art is another beast and you need to refer to the art definition in which one of the main attributes is the expert/collecting community/artists recognition of the piece as being a yixing art piece and eventually few artist names will pop up. To my knowledge, this is also true at F1 times where some of you can recognize the potter that made the pot despite no sign/individual mark is allowed. Because it is a consensus, the definition has to remain vague, very much like in modern art. And BTW Yixing has also been, earlier, a famous place for celadon... it seems to have been a ceramic place of various types of wares.

Coming back to previous posts, the issue of Japanese poisonous glaze and ustensils is a very constant one. There is a lot of litterature about the danger being more about acidic food/beverage. It is known and documented. And the same is true for Spanish, French, Chinese wares,... name it. So pointing out a single national industry might not be much meaningful in my opinion.
Regarding fakes, we know there is a culture of forgery in both China and Japan, Chang Dai-chien is an extremely famous and skilled Chinese example. But in Japan, quite "romantically", this would be considered utushi (some sort of lineage between the master and the student and some respectful appropriation of the master skill). I believe the key issue of fake is the actual intention of cheating. In that regard, forgery would be less in Japan, because if a piece is "inspired" by X, it would be mentioned as such and accepted as a real valuable piece nonetheless.

I have mixed feelings about what was said about Japanese ware collecting and clay interest. It is pretty sure that a vertical collection of Japanese ware is mostly unheard of, be it amongst individuals or institutions (museum, etc...). Usually, one will collect a variety of eras, artists, and clays/glazes. While the clay effect is less in Japan, and we tend to focus on the artistic facet, some clays are a central element of the piece and the one that comes to my mind is Iga and the attributes of Iga : bidoro, hi-iro, koge. But again the clay effect is of lesser importance simply because Japanese tea is by and large green tea, body is predominant, bitterness and astringency is easy to control with generally lower brewing temperature and there's no ageing tastes.

@Bok if there no yixing, no tea, no being so "form is emptiness and emptiness is form", please detached yourself from craving and ship to me whatever teapots you have so you can reach peaceful mindfulness. I'll take the burden from your shoulders.

[Bok]

and there's no ageing tastes.

There is and there are. It is just not something mainstream Japanese tea makers and consumers look out for. If you browse the forum you'll find some testimonials.

please detached yourself from craving and ship to me whatever teapots you have so you can reach peaceful mindfulness. I'll take the burden from your shoulders.

I am quite at peace with my collection, no burden, just simple enjoyment. My money has left the painful stage of being born and re-born again and being spent and has reached its final incarnation as teapots in my shelves...

[Youzi]

What are the critical attributes that make a pot yixing. And in critical, I mean, without X attribute, then pot cannot be called yixing.

Is it the source of the clay?

Is it the method in which the pot is made?

Is it the location and history of the workshop/artist?


In other words, can these be yixing? -

Slab built pot with non yixing clay by yixing artist?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist?

Slab built pot with yixing clay by non yixing artist and workshop in Beijing?

Wheel thrown pot with yixing clay by yixing artist in yixing?

I think what matters is keeping the essence and what makes yixing pots unique.

So those are:
- the ore (in the yixing area, that geologically belongs there, not necessarily only ore from HLS. What matters is the ore is geologocally similar belongs to the same category as those from the old mines.)

- the ore indicates the second requirement, the processing of the ore into clay. So weathering, crushing, mixing aging. The clay is the classical traditional consistency.

- the latter requirement directly influences the next. Slab built, by hand. Half hand is still acceptable. ( machine made, slip casted and throwing aren't, these all require the clay to be different and some requires additional ingredients to make it work )

- unglazed, at least on the inside. The outside can be painted or modern wood fired, lacquered etc.

Where the teapot was made, finished doesn't matter that much. If the above points are kept true to their essence.

[Bok]

- unglazed, at least on the inside. The outside can be painted or modern wood fired, lacquered etc.

Again, the problems start... a lot of antiques have actually been glazed, some even inside. the weirdest specimen I saw was only glazed inside... which is quite common for antique Yixing clay cups as well actually. So all this doesn't work as mentioned above.

A fully mass produced Yixing pot is still Yixing, albeit a low quality one.

[olivierd]

There is and there are. It is just not something mainstream Japanese tea makers and consumers look out for. If you browse the forum you'll find some testimonials.

A few exceptions exist, but in the context of the discussion it's quite neglectible.

Huuuum, I'm seeing you have not yet reached the final stage of wabi and emptiness, don't you see your pots are full of emptiness ?

[Bok]

don't you see your pots are full of emptiness ?

Only when not in use.

[Youzi]

- unglazed, at least on the inside. The outside can be painted or modern wood fired, lacquered etc.

Again, the problems start... a lot of antiques have actually been glazed, some even inside. the weirdest specimen I saw was only glazed inside... which is quite common for antique Yixing clay cups as well actually. So all this doesn't work as mentioned above.

A fully mass produced Yixing pot is still Yixing, albeit a low quality one.

It's more a question of yixing what is it. I'm referring here to yixing teapots. Ofc many yixing ware was made before for other purposes other than tea drinking. Like ink holders etc.

Yixing ware is a much broader category, than just yixing teapots.

What do you mean by mass produced? Just because something is made in yixing isn't an yixing teapot, if it doesn't keep the essence of the craft.

Ofc pls challenge my ideas, so I can learn more too.

[olivierd]

don't you see your pots are full of emptiness ?

Only when not in use.

The river always flows, yet the waters are never the same...
Very much like yixing discussions as I see it !