Yixing

[Bok]

@Chadrinkincat I’ve wondered that myself! It is true that the vast majority of antiques in red clay are Zhuni, I very rarely see Hongni... would be very curious to hear an explanation as to why that is.

[Balthazar]

It's a special blend of clay as all other clays in F1. The material should probably be from the mines which were active during that production of Niangaotu. I don't know which years were niangaotu common at, so I can't tell from which mines it could've come from.

Thanks! According to Kyarazen's post these pots only appeared during the green label period.

[steanze]

It's a special blend of clay as all other clays in F1. The material should probably be from the mines which were active during that production of Niangaotu. I don't know which years were niangaotu common at, so I can't tell from which mines it could've come from.

Thanks! According to Kyarazen's post these pots only appeared during the green label period.

That's right, niangaotu was used for a fairly short period. I haven't seen any niangaotu pots before or after green label.

[steanze]

Following the link to teachat that Balthazar posted, I read through the whole thread and saw this comment from kyarazen.



I'm curious 1. If that is true, that not many hongni pots were made in the qing dynasty, that most were zhuni and 2. If that's true, then why? Was it the preferred material for teapots? Was there simply more of it closer to the surface in the mines which made it easier to gather? And then from that, was hongni deeper and so harder to access with the technology available? Which is why we don't see more of it till later?

Yes, that is true. I have seen late Qing hongni pots, but they are quite rare. Also, the type of hongni is a quite interesting one, different from the xiao-hongni of pre-1977 F1, from niangaotu, and more recent hongni clays I have seen. They tend to have darker purplish red color.

I am not sure about why that is the case, it could be that hongni was more difficult to access, or that they had a preference for zhuni over hongni I would also be curious to find out more

[Youzi]

Following the link to teachat that Balthazar posted, I read through the whole thread and saw this comment from kyarazen.



I'm curious 1. If that is true, that not many hongni pots were made in the qing dynasty, that most were zhuni and 2. If that's true, then why? Was it the preferred material for teapots? Was there simply more of it closer to the surface in the mines which made it easier to gather? And then from that, was hongni deeper and so harder to access with the technology available? Which is why we don't see more of it till later?

Yes, that is true. I have seen late Qing hongni pots, but they are quite rare. Also, the type of hongni is a quite interesting one, different from the xiao-hongni of pre-1977 F1, from niangaotu, and more recent hongni clays I have seen. They tend to have darker purplish red color.

I am not sure about why that is the case, it could be that hongni was more difficult to access, or that they had a preference for zhuni over hongni I would also be curious to find out more

From 72-92 is mostly Mine No. 4 time. There was a Nenni mine which opened in 76 so +1 year, could indicate that they started to mix in Nenni or zhuni into the hongni from that mine.

[.m.]

I've been wondering about old hongni as well. A question is, what makes a clay outside of Factory 1 to be characterized as a hongni?
- For example, I have an old zisha kettle, the clay of which reminds me of QSN in terms of it's granularity but overall is red in color very much like hongni (sorry no picture on me). How would one call it? Hong qing shui ni?
- What sort of zisha are typical Kangxi/mid Qing pots made of? From pictures they usually seem reddish brown?
- Are some of the LQER "zhuni" pots made of hongni instead?

[pantry]

- For example, I have an old zisha kettle, the clay of which reminds me of QSN in terms of it's granularity but overall is red in color very much like hongni (sorry no picture on me). How would one call it? Hong qing shui ni?

Isn't red QSN called Hong Pi Long?

[Teachronicles]

- For example, I have an old zisha kettle, the clay of which reminds me of QSN in terms of it's granularity but overall is red in color very much like hongni (sorry no picture on me). How would one call it? Hong qing shui ni?

Isn't red QSN called Hong Pi Long?

I've heard hong qing shui ni before too

[Teachronicles]

- Are some of the LQER "zhuni" pots made of hongni instead?

From my understanding, pure zhuni cannot be fired on its own. So it is always blended with another clay, hongni or something else (there was another common one blended with zhuni, but I can't remember the name), or also already fired zhuni pieces. Determining what percent of zhuni is in antique pot/what percent of the blended clay, I don't know how to do. Perhaps their are some tricks based on texture or appearance.

[steanze]

Lots of questions here!

I've been wondering about old hongni as well. A question is, what makes a clay outside of Factory 1 to be characterized as a hongni?
- For example, I have an old zisha kettle, the clay of which reminds me of QSN in terms of it's granularity but overall is red in color very much like hongni (sorry no picture on me). How would one call it? Hong qing

Hongni is a bit complicated. There are different ores that are called "hongni". Generally, I'd say that the term is used for ores that are not water soluble and that after fired they are red and not very muting. Some hongni can be reddish in its rock form, some can be yellow. If a clay in rock form is yellow and water soluble, it would be called zhuni. If it's very porous, even if it's reddish it could be hong qingshuini or hong pi long. These two are different clays as far as I know however. There are also browner/reddish kinds of zini. Hard to tell what your kettle would be called without pictures...

- What sort of zisha are typical Kangxi/mid Qing pots made of? From pictures they usually seem reddish brown?

Teapots in Kangxi and Mid Qing were made with a variety of clays. You have zhuni and hongni, but also zini, duanni... some were even encased in pewter

- Are some of the LQER "zhuni" pots made of hongni instead?

well, how do you define a LQER "zhuni" pot? There are LQER hongni pots that are not zhuni. Then, there are LQER zhuni pots that don't have hongni. There can also be LQER pots with blended hongni and zhuni, or with blended zhuni and nenni. Blending clays is a very old practice, going back all the way to the Ming masters: they often blended clay with quartz or sand, and got really snug lid fits as result, because of reduced contraction during firing.

Zhuni can be quite pure. That does increase the risk of cracking. So it is more common to find it mixed with a bit of something else.

[Youzi]

I've been wondering about old hongni as well. A question is, what makes a clay outside of Factory 1 to be characterized as a hongni?
- For example, I have an old zisha kettle, the clay of which reminds me of QSN in terms of it's granularity but overall is red in color very much like hongni (sorry no picture on me). How would one call it? Hong qing shui ni?
- What sort of zisha are typical Kangxi/mid Qing pots made of? From pictures they usually seem reddish brown?
- Are some of the LQER "zhuni" pots made of hongni instead?

depends what kind of definitions do you prefer. Usually I like to refer to the exact ore types, because the certain blend recipes just doesn't make much sense and lead to never ending discussion.

Hongni is Hongni, Zhuni is Zhuni. There isn't new or old, the ore is there for millions of years.
Now, processing and clay mixing is another beast in it self. Like you could mix hongni and zhuni, and have the "best of both worlds", of course the result is not as good as pure zhuni, or pure hongni, but it could be good enough to fool some people into any of the directions.

Or, what about Nenni and Shihuang mix? That could very well produce a similar result to pure Zhuni. Or basically anything added with shihuang can easily produce similar results to Hongni, and with certain ores, similar to zhuni. (Shihuang is basically the iron oxide of ancient times)

maybe I didn't answer any of your question...

[Bok]

Voilá there you have Yixing! Any answer raises a lot more questions and further deepens the confusion

I’m still confused, it’s the “Yixing state of mind.”

[.m.]

Thank you all for your replies, i keep learning new things. It clarifies a lot, and creates more questions as well.

My questions weren't very well formulated because my thoughts are not. For some clarification what i've meant:
1- By "typical clay" of Kangxi and mid Qing, i was referring to pots like this
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2286 ... -mengchen/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O101096/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O115611/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O115610/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1156 ... t-unknown/
Of course, these are not the same clay, but there some rough similarities, as far as one can trust the photos.
2- What i've meant by LQER "zhuni", is that a red clay teapot with a smooth surface and presumably low porosity from that period will be typically labeled as "zhuni" since that is the desirable clay. However, once fired it might sometimes not be obvious what the material was and whether actual zhuni ore was present in a significant amount. Since there are many "zhuni" pots from that time and relatively few "hongni", the question is if/how many of the pots that are labeled "zhuni" could/should be instead labeled "hongni"?

What is schihuang? Is it a soluble form of zhuni? Are there non-soluble forms of zhuni?
What is nenni? Is xiao hongni a part of nenni? Are there other nenni clays?

[pantry]

And don’t forget there’s a different between ‘shihuang ni’ (also known as Zhusha ni) and ‘shihuang’

[steanze]

Thank you all for your replies, i keep learning new things. It clarifies a lot, and creates more questions as well.

My questions weren't very well formulated because my thoughts are not. For some clarification what i've meant:
1- By "typical clay" of Kangxi and mid Qing, i was referring to pots like this
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2286 ... -mengchen/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O101096/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O115611/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O115610/vase-unknown/
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1156 ... t-unknown/
Of course, these are not the same clay, but there some rough similarities, as far as one can trust the photos.
2- What i've meant by LQER "zhuni", is that a red clay teapot with a smooth surface and presumably low porosity from that period will be typically labeled as "zhuni" since that is the desirable clay. However, once fired it might sometimes not be obvious what the material was and whether actual zhuni ore was present in a significant amount. Since there are many "zhuni" pots from that time and relatively few "hongni", the question is if/how many of the pots that are labeled "zhuni" could/should be instead labeled "hongni"?

What is schihuang? Is it a soluble form of zhuni? Are there non-soluble forms of zhuni?
What is nenni? Is xiao hongni a part of nenni? Are there other nenni clays?

1) got it. That's a typical red clay of Kangxi/early Qing. Not really seen much in mid Qing any more. It is different from both late Qing zhuni and hongni there is some variation pot to pot, some look a bit more hongni-like, others a bit more zhuni like. They could be a blend. I have an example of each, the hongni-like one is not very porous, the more zhuni-like I haven't used yet, but I'd imagine it's even less.
2) if it's hongni, the texture would not be like that, hongni does not get that smooth and dense. Even very fine xiao hongni from the 1960s (i.e. the "fentai" type) still has a bit of "goosebumps" on the surface. For the very dense and smooth "zhuni" pots, it is clear it's not hongni. When the surface is more grainy, then something is mixed in, it could be hongni or other things. Also hongni is matte when unused, whereas zhuni has a bit of shine. With a bit of experience you can recognize the difference between hongni only and a mix of zhuni plus some coarser clay (with some margin of error). Finally, the hongni-only pots in LQER use a quite distinctive batch of hongni that has a darker red color while the zhuni tends to be a bit more orange. You can use a combination of these properties to judge the clay of a pot. It is a bit tricky to discuss abstractly but hopefully this helps.

There aren't any non-soluble forms of zhuni to my knowledge.
Nenni is another type of clay, quite abundant, it's sometimes used as additive. If I remember correctly, the 90s F1 "hongni" is made by adding iron oxide to nenni ore (as I reread what I write it sounds like clay terminology is an evil genius' ploy to drive people crazy ).
Xiao hongni is not a part of nenni.