Yixing

DailyTX
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Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:48 pm

Noonie wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:00 am
Question about pot density and types of Pu’erh. In general, is pot density = thickness, how pourous, something else?

I’ve heard from a vendor that for aged Shou you want a lower density clay, for new Sheng a higher density clay (to pick a couple mo examples on opposite sides of the scale). So I’m trying to understand this better. Just for my practical knowledge.

Thanks!

P.S. I’ve read about this in this forum, but sometimes with other context about specific pots or clays, so I wanted to ask this hopefully straightforward question.
@Noonie
Density does not equal to thickness because the item has to be proportionate to its size and weight. In term of zisha, think about 300 grams of zhuni vs. 300 grams of zini, after firing, they would have different density if my understanding is correct. Maybe clay experts can chime in, I think zhuni category has the higher density in comparison to zini and duanni. As for porosity, if a type of mineral has more air pockets, then it has more porosity. However, you also have to factor in the clay processing method as seniors talked about numerous regarding porosity in comparison with modern and traditional clay processing methods. I had the similar question a few years ago, so far I only know of 1 vendor who label their pot with density. It kind of give you another aspect of zisha :lol:
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Youzi
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Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:10 am

@Noonie
@DailyTX
Density is basically the amount of stuff in a certain amount of space. The more stuff you have in a more smaller space, the more dense it is. So the most sense teapot would be one which is paper thin and for 100ml globe shape it'd be 1kg or something, for example.
( Density = mass / volume ) ( it's not the volume of the teapot, but the volume of the wall )

Imagine an empty jar. Fill it with large stones. The space between the stones is the "porosity". Add smaller stones in-between the larger stones, now the porosity is decreased and the density is also increased. During firing these "stones", particles are fused together (the edges of the stones glue together), this process is called sintering. During the sintering phase the teapot becomes impermeable to water, so no matter how long you keep water in it, it won't leak through the wall.

The higher the sintering degree of the teapot the more the particles fuse together, the smaller the porosity becomes, and density also increases. If you increase the temperature further then comes vitrification when the substance becomes more glass like, and properties of the substance also changes, after its finished, it'll be more fragile and less resistant to heat shock, while a highly sintered substance is more resistant and sturdy.
DailyTX
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Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:33 pm

@Youzi
Thank you for such detail explanation.
polezaivsani
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Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:52 pm

Seem like language barrier is too high for me to hear back from HY Chen, hence i'm curious to hear your speculation whether this http://2088taiwan.com//index.php?route= ... uct_id=112 teapot might be bigger than the stated 40ml. I remember that his specification where at least on one occasion not 100% on point and on the photos, the little details seem to be too fine for a 40ml size. Any thoughts?
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Bok
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Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:09 pm

polezaivsani wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Seem like language barrier is too high for me to hear back from HY Chen, hence i'm curious to hear your speculation whether this http://2088taiwan.com//index.php?route= ... uct_id=112 teapot might be bigger than the stated 40ml. I remember that his specification where at least on one occasion not 100% on point and on the photos, the little details seem to be too fine for a 40ml size. Any thoughts?
Image
Looking at the hand pictured and from my own collection of 40-50ml ish teapots, I do not think that it is off by a lot to say 40ml, 45/50 at the most...
mafoofan
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:30 am

Anyone know much about current heavy-hitters in the realm of zhuni?

I’m looking to buy or commission a new teapot from one of the following:

Zhu Meng Gen / 朱孟根 / unranked
Xu Jin Gen / 徐金根 / unranked
Xu Fu Jun / 许福军 / ranked

Pots from the above seem to start at $3,500-4,000 USD. Not concerned with the price. However it’s hard to find much information on any of them. Best I can do is translate Chinese text, but that is not getting me far. The latter two have been mentioned here and on Teachat as two of the great living zhuni artists, but not much detail has been shared.

Would love to know what distinguishes these makers: process, clay, style, workmanship, etc. I don’t care about whether they are certified or ranked. Seems the best zhuni specialists often aren’t and reputation is reputation. It’s almost more impressive to me when a potter can command thousands of dollars for his work without the benefit of a formal title.

Anyone else I should be considering?

Thanks!
Last edited by mafoofan on Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bok
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:34 am

mafoofan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:30 am
Anyone know much about current heavy-hitters in the realm of zhuni?

I’m looking to buy or commission a new teapot from one of the following:

Zhu Meng Gen / 朱孟根 / unranked
Xu Jin Gen / 徐金根 / unranked
Xu Fu Jun / 许福军 / ranked

Pots from the above seem to start at $3,500-4,000 USD. Not concerned with the price. However it’s hard to find much information on any of them. Best I can do is translate Chinese text, but that is not getting me far. The latter two have been mentioned here and on Teachat as two of the great living zhuni artists.

Would love to know what distinguishes these makers: process, clay, style, workmanship, etc.

Thanks!
If you have that budget available, why don’t you get an antique Zhuni from ZAG for example? At that price point that would be my preference and it’s doable as well. Also in terms of investment a better choice. The antique will not loose its value, the modern one will not guaranteed see an increase or even stay the same if you ever decide to sell it.
mafoofan
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:36 am

Bok wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:34 am
mafoofan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:30 am
Anyone know much about current heavy-hitters in the realm of zhuni?

I’m looking to buy or commission a new teapot from one of the following:

Zhu Meng Gen / 朱孟根 / unranked
Xu Jin Gen / 徐金根 / unranked
Xu Fu Jun / 许福军 / ranked

Pots from the above seem to start at $3,500-4,000 USD. Not concerned with the price. However it’s hard to find much information on any of them. Best I can do is translate Chinese text, but that is not getting me far. The latter two have been mentioned here and on Teachat as two of the great living zhuni artists.

Would love to know what distinguishes these makers: process, clay, style, workmanship, etc.

Thanks!
If you have that budget available, why don’t you get an antique Zhuni from ZAG for example? At that price point that would be my preference and it’s doable as well. Also in terms of investment a better choice. The antique will not loose its value, the modern one will not guaranteed see an increase or even stay the same if you ever decide to sell it.
I might try the antique route one day, but want to stick with modern for now. Not concerned with value retention. Will use this teapot as a teapot, not an investment.
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Balthazar
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:46 am

I think it's going to be tough to find more (reliable) info on modern Chinese potters at the detail level you're interested in, without assistance from someone with a strong command of Chinese. I'd recommend trying to ask over at the 紫砂江湖/zisha jianghu (what a great forum name btw), but you'll probably have to do so in Chinese. If you write short, simple sentences, Google Translate might do a half-decent job...
mafoofan
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:31 pm

Minor update for those who are interested:

Xu Jin Gen will not make a teapot smaller than 150ml.

Xu Fu Jun does not take special orders—you pick from whatever he happens to have available—but he does make ~100ml teapots.

Zhu Meng Gen takes special orders and would make a pot in a shape and size requested. However, while he mostly makes zhuni, he also works with zini. Without knowing more, that is a bit of a turn-off. I want a potter who lives and breathes zhuni!
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Bok
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:57 pm

mafoofan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:31 pm

Zhu Meng Gen takes special orders and would make a pot in a shape and size requested. However, while he mostly makes zhuni, he also works with zini. Without knowing more, that is a bit of a turn-off. I want a potter who lives and breathes zhuni!
That is kind of an odd request... I don’t think any potter would or even can specialise in one sub category of Yixing. Should also not be too different in the skill set involved to work with Zini and Zhuni... if you’re that into Zhuni I’d rather go with antique Zhun. For one you can be sure it doesn’t have any additives in it, secondly the performance with tea is a tad better and lastly the workmanship is usually pretty nice and they almost always come in small sizes(smaller than 90).
mafoofan
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:48 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:46 am
I think it's going to be tough to find more (reliable) info on modern Chinese potters at the detail level you're interested in, without assistance from someone with a strong command of Chinese. I'd recommend trying to ask over at the 紫砂江湖/zisha jianghu (what a great forum name btw), but you'll probably have to do so in Chinese. If you write short, simple sentences, Google Translate might do a half-decent job...
Thanks for the suggestion—I have been attempting to browse that forum, but I can’t find much substance. Seems mostly people selling lots and not much actual conversation.
mafoofan
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:52 pm

Bok wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:57 pm
That is kind of an odd request... I don’t think any potter would or even can specialise in one sub category of Yixing. Should also not be too different in the skill set involved to work with Zini and Zhuni... if you’re that into Zhuni I’d rather go with antique Zhun. For one you can be sure it doesn’t have any additives in it, secondly the performance with tea is a tad better and lastly the workmanship is usually pretty nice and they almost always come in small sizes(smaller than 90).
I am no expert, but the first part of your comment isn’t accurate. Zhuni clay is both processed and worked differently. It’s a specialized skill-set. There are many potters who focus completely on zhuni and the best known zhuni masters generally only work with zhuni. Zhu Meng Gen seems to be an exception, but I’m still learning about him.
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Bok
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Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:57 pm

mafoofan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:52 pm
I am no expert, but the first part of your comment isn’t accurate. Zhuni clay is both processed and worked differently. It’s a specialized skill-set. There are many potters who focus completely on zhuni and the best known zhuni masters generally only work with zhuni.
What I am saying is that: if you can work with Zhuni, it won't be a problem to work with the easier to handle Zini, it's easier and more forgiving to work with. The basic method of slab building is still the same. Those who know more about this topic may correct me if I that is not the case...

With supplies for Zhuni being relatively scarce and Zini abundant, it can simply be a question of insufficient supply of one to also work with other clays. In the end you want to earn money, so you need to shell out a certain amount of teapots per month to do so.
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Balthazar
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Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:24 am

mafoofan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:48 pm
Thanks for the suggestion—I have been attempting to browse that forum, but I can’t find much substance. Seems mostly people selling lots and not much actual conversation.
You will find this to be true about many of the Chinese tea related forums. I was suggesting you actually start a topic yourself, rather than trying to find an existing one. Seems you've already been able to get some of the details you were after, though :)
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