Yixing

Mark-S
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:58 pm

@OCTO

Thanks, I won't discount modern pots completely.
I've found some that outperforms LQER pots in terms of brew performance by many folds.
I've read that multiple times before, and it's just logical that modern pots could be better than vintage or antiques, because production methods are improving gradually.

@Chadrinkincat

However, I am not always wrong. With the export teapot and the dragon teapot, for example, I was right. :P I doubt that there is a CCCI seal on this pot (I have seen many of these pots), but I'll let you know. In addition, CCCI pots are often slip casted. This pot does look a bit weird (especially the lid), but it does not look slip casted to me, but it's hard to tell from a bad photo. I'll post a quick update once I have the pot in my hands. It's likely that you are right with it being a bad pot, but I cannot know that for sure based on a bad photo. So I'll just wait for now.

@OCTO

That's a great answer, thank you so much and sorry, I did not notice the different handle decorations before. I have to be more careful about that. But I am not sure what you mean with the lid. Could you please explain that? The decorations on the handle really look more refined on the ZAG pot, but I still think it was a great purchase. After all it's still a confirmed 70's F1 pot with a not so bad craftsmanship for less than $100. I am currently using my Hongni pots, but if this pot makes good tea and gets a patina in a reasonable amount of time that's all I am asking for. :)
you might get bac-tea disguised as black tea..
:lol:

I always clean my pots with the left over water. It's not boiling hot but sufficient in my view. There are many methods for boosting the patina development. For example, many people here boil their pots in tea (really bad Idea, I tried this myself!), or they put the teapot in a bowl of hot tea and let it sit over night. I once used a brush, but I am now too lazy for it. I'll just get the patina by use.
Mark-S
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:12 am

That's a similar angle of my teapot's lid. Another thing I noticed now is that the rim looks different. But I still don't understand your example. In the future I'll take similar photos of my pots and compare the photos side by side. For me it's easier that way. It is hard for me to compare a pot to a photo.

@Chadrinkincat

Speaking of CCCI "duanni": https://www.ebay.com/itm/392835847514
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:30 am

Mark-S wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:58 pm

OCTO

That's a great answer, thank you so much and sorry, I did not notice the different handle decorations before. I have to be more careful about that. But I am not sure what you mean with the lid. Could you please explain that? The decorations on the handle really look more refined on the ZAG pot, but I still think it was a great purchase. After all it's still a confirmed 70's F1 pot with a not so bad craftsmanship for less than $100.
@Mark-S

Your welcome. I truly hope this helps shed some positivity into this thread.

It's not a bad purchase at all.... that's why I said, it's very natural for you to have missed the differences us to your order of criteria. It's in the details of the knob. The knob represents clouds... hence the cloud motif. The Chinese have a very subtle way of distinguishing quality and position... an example will be the use of Dragons in the Imperial Court. The Emperor's robe will always be donned with dragons with 5 claws which the Prince, 4 claws. It's a very small detail which is a life and death situation if a mistake is made. Coming back to the knob, the waves, curves, flow of the lines is where the difference is. Then the ring that loops around it, the depth of the inscription and motif engraved speaks of the "strength/confidence" of the potter's hands.

There are very small and intricate details which are very obvious to an artistic eye, but will be very quickly discounted for a non artistic eye. You have a preference for decorated pots, hence, it's an eventuality for you to learn to recognise and detect these little and subtle details. It's a natural expectation... when you buy a Ferrari, you would it to go fast. I won't expect you to cruise on the Autobahn at 80KM/h right?... Since you like decorated pots, take some time to learn up on the intricate details that makes a good pot, a great pot. Questions like... "How realistic are the branches?", "Are the proportions between handle, lid and spout balanced?, "Is the calligraphy engraved with bamboo, metal or wood??" , "Is the calligraphy exhibiting a strong hand?", "Is the density of the clay correct? (you won't know until you get to hold the pot in your hands)"..... these are some questions you would like to learn to answer.... We have yet to move into the correctness of the clay.... that's another abyss I'd rather not discuss at this point of time. @Youzi made some very good points we can all learn from.
Mark-S wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:58 pm
if this pot makes good tea and gets a patina in a reasonable amount of time that's all I am asking for. :)
This pretty much sums up your current position and expectation. I say current as this might change with time as you grow to learn and shift your expectations accordingly. For now, I would say this is your top criteria.

Cheers!
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:39 am

Mark-S wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:12 am
That's a similar angle of my teapot's lid. Another thing I noticed now is that the rim looks different. But I still don't understand your example. In the future I'll take similar photos of my pots and compare the photos side by side. For me it's easier that way. It is hard for me to compare a pot to a photo.
@Mark-S

Trust me on this.... It's impossible unless you have both pots side by side. At best you can have an educated guess based on past experience. To answer your curiosity, yes, It's a been there done that for me. I have multiple pots of the same design, same era for the sake of learning and comparison. It's very common back in the 70s to 90s for collectors to buy F1 pots by the boxes and select the best few that outshines the rest. For example, one will buy 10 3friends pot and pick the one he or she likes best and sell the rest. This is how many collectors learn to distinguish clay quality. Once you have done this multiple times, you will be able to detect and distinguish good and average clay.

Cheers!
Mark-S
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:01 am

@OCTO

I have to work on my artistic eye then. :D
OCTO wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:39 am
For example, one will buy 10 3friends pot and pick the one he or she likes best and sell the rest. This is how many collectors learn to distinguish clay quality. Once you have done this multiple times, you will be able to detect and distinguish good and average clay.
I think you are right with this. I always wondered why there are so many mediocre pots sold by experienced users. Take this pot for example [Link removed]. Pots like this I would not buy. There are enough inexpensive F1 3 Friends pots out there. I know that my 3 Friends pots are not perfect, but they are better than this pot. (And they cost much less... :lol:)
Last edited by Mark-S on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:21 am

Mark-S wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:01 am

I have to work on my artistic eye then. :D

I think you are right with this. I always wondered why there are so many mediocre pots sold by experienced users. Pots like this I would not buy. There are enough inexpensive F1 3 Friends pots out there. I know that my 3 Friends pots are not perfect, but they are much better than this pot. (And they cost much less... :lol:)
@Mark-S

Yes, that's the spirit!! Keep it up, but do it at your own pace.

A note to remember, out of courtesy and respect for fellow forummers, do refrain from comments that will trigger an adverse perception, especially from the TeaSwap or Sale section. There are many TeaChat members who have migrated here and remained active in both Forums. My roots are also from TeaChat, same goes to many of us here. Admins included... hahahaha....

Cheers!
Last edited by OCTO on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mark-S
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:28 am

@OCTO

Oops, I did not think of that. :oops: I removed the link/name now. Could you please do the same with the quote? I cannot edit this myself. Thanks
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:55 am

Mark-S wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:28 am
OCTO

Oops, I did not think of that. :oops: I removed the link/name now. Could you please do the same with the quote? I cannot edit this myself. Thanks
Done!.... :D :D
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Youzi
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:03 pm
Location: Shaxi, Yunnan, China
Contact:

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:12 am

@OCTO

I noticed that giving back aroma when adding hot water highly depends on the tea you brew in the pot. My oolong pots can get to this effect in about a couple months, of using with similar tasting, smelling tea. It's important to mention, that if I don't use the pots frequently enough, then this effect will disappear, or reduced.

Based on the research I did this thing is the effect of tea stain, which leaves behind volatile compounds which get released with hot water. However this effect can be achieved with other vessels too.

I noticed it with my glass glencairn, which I mostly use with fragrant yancha. So when I add hot water to it, I can smell a faint yancha smell from the cup.

I think the porous nature of the pot increases this effect.
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Balthazar
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:13 am

Mark-S wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:56 pm
That's my order of priority: clay quality, tea quality, water quality, design, workmanship, age.
That's an interesting ordering. If we reduce tea enjoyment to the utility aspect (and omit the factors that are more connected with artistic appreciation), I'd go with tea quality, water quality and clay quality in that order. Or perhaps even water quality as number one, although I'm blessed with really great tap water so I tend to forget the importance of this factor.

MarshalN has been hammering on about the relative unimportance of teaware for more than a decade now. It still seems like many are spending a disproportionate amount of their tea budget on teaware (and pots in particular) compared to tea leaves. I can't help to smile (but like to think I do so in a compassionate rather than arrogant way) when I see random people of Facebook asking if some sketchy $20 puer cake will be a fitting purchase for their newly acquired ~$1000 Diamond Grade teapot from Chanting Pines. Not to say anything bad about those pots, they're probably great, but no matter how good the clay is it's not going to transform something mundane into gold. The expression "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind.

On one level it makes total sense for me that people are willing to spend more on pots than leaves. After all, they are a one-time investment (unless you're unlucky and break it) whereas the leaves will be spent. You can raise your pots, and if you buy several, each of which is a good representation of the clay category it belongs to, you can also experiment with how different clay affects different teas. Still, even with all of this taken into account, it seems to me that there is still a clear tendency to overallocate the proportion of one's budget that goes to teaware (and perhaps particularly in the west, I'll be careful to generalize based on limited and anecdotal evidence but most "utility drinkers" I know in Asia seem to spend a significantly larger % of their total tea budget on leaves). Again, I'm simply looking at utility and not taking the values that are artistic and historic in nature into account here.

An analogy would be buying a great collection of antique cast iron cookware and then skimping on the actual food ingredients you use. It's still going to be fun to experience the difference the material itself makes, but if your main goal is to make great dishes then more money spent on the ingredients would have been the way to go.

Sorry about the digression. Not directed at anyone in particular. :)
Teachronicles
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:26 am

@Balthazar Ime, people that fall deep into the rabbit hole of pot collecting, don't skimp on tea quality either, tho of course there are exceptions.
Mark-S
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:05 pm
Location: Germany

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:27 am

@Balthazar

I agree with you 100%. I started with tea that cost €3/100g (50% discount price), and now I am using teas that cost €20-€60/100g. It's a huuuge improvement. You cannot get this improvement through teaware. What I meant with "clay quality" was mainly that it has to be clay without any harmful chemicals and with a nice look/feel and sufficient for making good tea. ;) I use filtered water for my tea right now, but I have not experimented much with different waters to be honest.

To explain my priorities better: I'd rather drink cheap tea (without harmful stuff in it) than poison myself with bad clay. Of course tea quality is very important to me too. ;)
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:52 am

Youzi wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:12 am
OCTO

I noticed that giving back aroma when adding hot water highly depends on the tea you brew in the pot. My oolong pots can get to this effect in about a couple months, of using with similar tasting, smelling tea. It's important to mention, that if I don't use the pots frequently enough, then this effect will disappear, or reduced.

Based on the research I did this thing is the effect of tea stain, which leaves behind volatile compounds which get released with hot water. However this effect can be achieved with other vessels too.

I noticed it with my glass glencairn, which I mostly use with fragrant yancha. So when I add hot water to it, I can smell a faint yancha smell from the cup.

I think the porous nature of the pot increases this effect.
@Youzi

Agree with you. Your findings and experiences are similar to mine.

Cheers!
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Balthazar
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:55 am

Teachronicles wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:26 am
Balthazar Ime, people that fall deep into the rabbit hole of pot collecting, don't skimp on tea quality either, tho of course there are exceptions.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking so much about the "deep fallers" and collectors, but more about the general segment whose interest is simply to brew a good cup of tea. Perhaps my impression is wrong though!

@Mark-S: Makes sense!
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OCTO
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:03 am

Balthazar wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:13 am
Mark-S wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:56 pm
That's my order of priority: clay quality, tea quality, water quality, design, workmanship, age.
That's an interesting ordering. If we reduce tea enjoyment to the utility aspect (and omit the factors that are more connected with artistic appreciation), I'd go with tea quality, water quality and clay quality in that order. Or perhaps even water quality as number one, although I'm blessed with really great tap water so I tend to forget the importance of this factor.

MarshalN has been hammering on about the relative unimportance of teaware for more than a decade now. It still seems like many are spending a disproportionate amount of their tea budget on teaware (and pots in particular) compared to tea leaves. I can't help to smile (but like to think I do so in a compassionate rather than arrogant way) when I see random people of Facebook asking if some sketchy $20 puer cake will be a fitting purchase for their newly acquired ~$1000 Diamond Grade teapot from Chanting Pines. Not to say anything bad about those pots, they're probably great, but no matter how good the clay is it's not going to transform something mundane into gold. The expression "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind.

On one level it makes total sense for me that people are willing to spend more on pots than leaves. After all, they are a one-time investment (unless you're unlucky and break it) whereas the leaves will be spent. You can raise your pots, and if you buy several, each of which is a good representation of the clay category it belongs to, you can also experiment with how different clay affects different teas. Still, even with all of this taken into account, it seems to me that there is still a clear tendency to overallocate the proportion of one's budget that goes to teaware (and perhaps particularly in the west, I'll be careful to generalize based on limited and anecdotal evidence but most "utility drinkers" I know in Asia seem to spend a significantly larger % of their total tea budget on leaves). Again, I'm simply looking at utility and not taking the values that are artistic and historic in nature into account here.

An analogy would be buying a great collection of antique cast iron cookware and then skimping on the actual food ingredients you use. It's still going to be fun to experience the difference the material itself makes, but if your main goal is to make great dishes then more money spent on the ingredients would have been the way to go.

Sorry about the digression. Not directed at anyone in particular. :)
@Balthazar

Great input!! Yes, I agree with Marshall's view. IMO, life is always about a balance of priorities. In the diverse tea world, again, there is no right or wrong to how one finds fit to spend one's earnings. I personally have close tea friends who places more emphasis on the pot than tea. They appreciate a good pot more than a good brew. On the other camp, I have friends who doesn't take notice on teapots.... they prioritise on the tea and the ratio of expenditure is a complete reverse. Hence, a good Gaiwan is all they need. It's very interesting when both camps of opposite divides meet. We always have a good laugh and sometimes one or two might get their ego bruised... but all done in good intension and humour. These behavioural conflicts in priorities often becomes a spark that can ignite a forest fire if not handled properly. Personally, I strive to take the middle road, leaning on either sides of the fence whenever I feel like going off-road... hahahaha....

Either paths, life is all about choices and the consequences that comes with it.

Chers!!

p/s: dang... i'm starting to sound philosophical.... hahahaha... ok back to my cup...
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