Yixing

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Bok
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Mon May 04, 2020 6:04 am

Your questions are not stupid, but you are too confident in your own judgement, which is dangerous for your wallet... just assume that almost everything you see is a fake or replica if it doesn’t cost more than what you are willing to spend. A gongju pot like the one above but real, would cost several 1000s of $. Very, very unlikely that it would ever be as low as 300-400$. Zero. So that is an indication that works even without having the faintest ideas of how the workmanship should look like.

There is one publisher specialising in old pot books in Taiwan. But I am not aware of they do international shipping. I can check.
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Bok
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Mon May 04, 2020 6:06 am

Black bones is not something many western Yixing collectors know about, even less own some, so it doesn’t surprise me that google doesn’t yield much...
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OCTO
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Mon May 04, 2020 6:08 am

Mark-S wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:14 am
OCTO

Why do you think that this is a modern replica? I have seen the identical GongJu makers mark on several auctions (not eBay, professional ones :D ) labled as Qing Dynasty. The clay also does not look modern to me, but ok, I am still a newbie and not experienced with Zhuni at all. :roll: By the way, you can take a look at the description for more images of this pot.
@Mark-S

贡局 pots are made during the early 1900s as royal gifts specifically for the King of the Kingdom of Siam. If you take a trip to The Riverfront Antique Mall in Bangkok, you will see many of these polished pots featured in their weekly auction and many more in the shops there. Be sure to go with a deep pocket.

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Source: https://news.taohuren.com/jianshangshou ... -4810.html


The commonly agreed by historians / collectors and recognised authentic 贡局 seals are as shown in the photo above. They are commonly found either at the base of at the inner lip under the lid. Another aspect is the workmanship of the pot above shouts "modern works"... Even the clay colour is not natural of aged HongNi or ZhuNi.

I personally would not read the description as in any online auction platform, the description is meant to prompt a BUY action. Hence, I would rely more on my own assessment and observations.

my 2cents.

Cheers!!
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OCTO
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Mon May 04, 2020 6:13 am

Mark-S wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:25 am
OCTO

And could you please tell me if that's "black bone" and why do you think that this pot is a replica? Sorry, if you have already answered this. I am interested in this topic, and I have only heard of "black bone" twice.

viewtopic.php?p=23134#p23134
hahaha.... @Bok has generously answered this question. As for why I consider this a replica.... I've seen and examined too many pots of such workmanship and clay. Many have passed through our hands.

Cheers!!
Mark-S
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Mon May 04, 2020 6:59 am

Bok wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:04 am
Your questions are not stupid, but you are too confident in your own judgement, which is dangerous for your wallet...
I did an extensive research on this teapot before I bid on it, but obviously it was not enough. Even at offline auctions the prices vary much, so it's hard to get the "normal" price. Because of the hairline crack and the damaged rim I thought that $250-$500 would be okay. Now, I know better. :D I felt pretty sure about the details except for the lid which looks a bit different from what I have seen before. Most likely not a good idea to trust professional sellers / auction houses in the West in the first place.
Bok wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:04 am
There is one publisher specialising in old pot books in Taiwan. But I am not aware of they do international shipping. I can check.
This would be great :)
OCTO wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:08 am
The commonly agreed by historians / collectors and recognised authentic 贡局 seals are as shown in the photo above. They are commonly found either at the base of at the inner lip under the lid. Another aspect is the workmanship of the pot above shouts "modern works"... Even the clay colour is not natural of aged HongNi or ZhuNi.

I personally would not read the description as in any online auction platform, the description is meant to prompt a BUY action. Hence, I would rely more on my own assessment and observations.
So the pots from the other auctions were also replicas. Good to know :shock:

I added a picture of a catalogue that was posted here about two weeks ago. It's in Chinese so I don't know how old the teapot is supposed to be according to the auction house, but the clay's color looks similar in my view. So ZhuNi/HongNi of this color is modern?

I only take a look at the description to look for details about the condition and for more pictures.
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Bok
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Mon May 04, 2020 7:18 am

@Mark-S damaged or chipped rims are to be expected, after all these delicate items are 100s of years old and have been used by many people! Even hairline cracks are common and not a very huuuge factor in price devaluation.

Take note: anything Zhuni that is antique is at least 1000$, that is for the low end and yes could even go for damaged items... perfect condition, top that by a couple of times. Especially the kind of more fancy pots you prefer are on the higher end of that scale.

What seems like quick judgement by myself and other here is the result of having seen up close a lot of the real items, to be able to assess fast what is likely something and what not.
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steanze
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Mon May 04, 2020 8:08 am

wow this thread moves fast!

Yes that gongju "zhuni" is very fake in many ways :) you lucked out. I agree with @Bok that you really need to study more before buying, otherwise you'll spend a lot of money on a pile of worthless fakes.
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OCTO
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Mon May 04, 2020 9:16 am

steanze wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:08 am
wow this thread moves fast!
We have our Yixing heroes to thank for reviving the thread!

steanze wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:08 am
I agree with @Bok that you really need to study more before buying, otherwise you'll spend a lot of money on a pile of worthless fakes.
😁😁


Cheers!!
Mark-S
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Mon May 04, 2020 1:07 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:08 am
Yes that gongju "zhuni" is very fake in many ways :)
So teapots of this color are always modern? I am asking because many supposedly antique teapots I have seen on offline auctions have this color. Do you have an example how ZhuNi from this era should look?
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steanze
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Mon May 04, 2020 1:17 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 1:07 pm

So teapots of this color are always modern? I am asking because many supposedly antique teapots I have seen on offline auctions have this color. Do you have an example how ZhuNi from this era should look?
It's not that simple. Color is not a very good cue, it can be easily faked, and it depends heavily on lighting. Here is a Qing zhuni:


IMG_20200410_120736655.jpg
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Now, if you find teapots that are of the same color, 99% or more will still be fakes.
Mark-S
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Mon May 04, 2020 1:50 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 1:17 pm
It's not that simple. Color is not a very good cue, it can be easily faked, and it depends heavily on lighting. Here is a Qing zhuni:
Thanks, I was just trying to understand why @OCTO said that "Even the clay colour is not natural of aged HongNi or ZhuNi". Honestly, I still don't understand but this takes years of practice I guess...
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pantry
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Mon May 04, 2020 2:14 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:59 am

I added a picture of a catalogue that was posted here about two weeks ago. It's in Chinese so I don't know how old the teapot is supposed to be according to the auction house, but the clay's color looks similar in my view. So ZhuNi/HongNi of this color is modern?

I only take a look at the description to look for details about the condition and for more pictures.
Image
There's a different between ebay/local auctions and reputable international auction houses such as Christie's. Not that the latter has never been fooled by God-level forgers, but you get my drift. Juli auction (catalog I posted) is based in Beijing--I imagine there'd be more Chinese antique experts there to vet the authenticity...

The Juli catalog pot above is from Qing period, expected to fetch around $2000-3000, quite different from the ebay pot you found. The clays don't look quite the same either. You can see shrinkage lines on the Juli pot. I'm not saying it's a marker for antique, but want to point out that the clays from these two pots don't look the same at all.

http://www.juligwg.com/uploads/upimg/20 ... a/5007.jpg
Mark-S
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Mon May 04, 2020 3:04 pm

@pantry

Thanks for the information. :)

I did not want to say that this teapot looks the same. I chose this teapot because the shape is somewhat similar. It's the clay's color I was asking about. It does not look that different in my opinion considering the lighting. It's not that I want to question your opinion. I just have trouble understanding @OCTO's assessment of the clay's color, and want to learn more about it.
Chadrinkincat
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Mon May 04, 2020 3:28 pm

@Mark-S
https://m.facebook.com/groups/151574408 ... oup_browse

You can view many examples of these replica/copy pots in this group.
Mark-S
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Mon May 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 3:28 pm
Mark-S
https://m.facebook.com/groups/151574408 ... oup_browse

You can view many examples of these replica/copy pots in this group.
Nice, I did not know this group. How can I be sure if it's a replica / a copy or a genuine one? By the price?
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