Yixing

[Mark-S]

I don't get why people still look out so much for pots from that era... 80-15 were the worst years of the industry.

What do you mean with 80-15? 1965-1980? Sorry, if this is a dumb question.

And what do you consider bad in this era? The clay? The craftsmanship? Both?

1. The belief that vintage clay is better than modern stuff.

From what I read that's true in many cases. At least when it comes to Factory 1 stuff from the 70's or earlier. I have also read from some Asian guys that they would not use modern pots at all. What is your opinion on this? I think they exaggerate it, but it is nicer to prepare tea in a vintage teapot because of the history behind it. And hopefully Factory 1 did not use many chemicals... with today's teapots you can never know unless you trust the potter.

[Youzi]

What do you mean with 80-15? 1965-1980? Sorry, if this is a dumb question.

Sorry, not sure how to write date ranges, when the century/millenia changes. I meant from 1980-2015. That's the time when BarCarb and other stuff got introduced into Yixing clay refining, and later acid washing, Adding Glass Water, etc. Don't get me wrong, there's many additives still in the clay today, but after you go over a certain price point in RMB, there's only really some BarCarb in the clay, which is not a big deal, if the pot is fired correctly, which is not difficult nowadays.

And what do you consider bad in this era? The clay? The craftsmanship? Both?

Both, however after privatization craftsmanship is slowly started to get better after the communist era.

1. The belief that vintage clay is better than modern stuff.

From what I read that's true in many cases. At least when it comes to Factory 1 stuff from the 70's or earlier. I have also read from some Asian guys that they would not use modern pots at all. What is your opinion on this? I think they exaggerate it, but it is nicer to prepare tea in a vintage teapot because of the history behind it. And hopefully Factory 1 did not use many chemicals... with today's teapots you can never know unless you trust the potter.

I mean, the clay was in the ground for like a million years, so 50 years is not much of a difference in that timespan. Zini is Zini, Zhuni is Zhuni... etc. The terroir, which specific mine, what depth exactly, doesn't really matter. There's some slight difference in the color, but that's only really a matter if all firing and other parameters are the same. If it's clay from Yixing (Dingshuzhen ), then it's good enough. Which mine of Huang Long Shan that Zini came from doesn't make a difference unless you are a clay collector like me.

[Youzi]

Youzi, thanks! I totally forgot I asked you about that.

So is the key characteristic the rough looking patch on the glaze?

To be honest it's not that obvious. Try to find the wind glaze in the following two pictures.
A great game

(Pictures are not mine. One is my friend's teapot, and the other one is from Ben's FB group)

[Mark-S]

@Youzi

I often read that there is not much "good" clay left especially when it comes to Zhuni. It is surprising that you say that there is no real difference except for the color.

[Youzi]

Youzi

I often read that there is not much "good" clay left especially when it comes to Zhuni. It is surprising that you say that there is no real difference except for the color.

There's plenty of clay left. You only run into a problem if you want for example Zhaozhuang Zhuni only. Or Hongwei xiaomeiyao Zhuni. These mines are closed now. Most of the top grade pots are made of Huang Long Shan zisha, zhuni included.

I mean, there's no difference regarding tea brewing quality, especially with zhuni.

I'm not sure what is good clay. But many people just want to sell pots on an extra, because the clay is extinct, rare, etc.

Sure there are rare sub sub types of clay, but you should think of them more like rare and legendary skins in Fortnite or something: Cool.

[Mark-S]

Sure there are rare sub sub types of clay, but you should think of them more like rare and legendary skins in Fortnite or something: Cool.

Good to know Unfortunately, I have not found a real Zhuni teapot yet. On teachat.com I read that modern Zhuni is not Zhuni but often Hongni. Is this true? If yes, why do they use Hongni instead? Because it is easier to work with Hongni or because the clay is cheaper/more common?

[Chadrinkincat]

Youzi, thanks! I totally forgot I asked you about that.

So is the key characteristic the rough looking patch on the glaze?

To be honest it's not that obvious. Try to find the wind glaze in the following two pictures.
A great game

(Pictures are not mine. One is my friend's teapot, and the other one is from Ben's FB group)

I love teapot guessing games!

[Baisao]

Youzi, thanks! I totally forgot I asked you about that.

So is the key characteristic the rough looking patch on the glaze?

To be honest it's not that obvious. Try to find the wind glaze in the following two pictures.
A great game

(Pictures are not mine. One is my friend's teapot, and the other one is from Ben's FB group)

I love teapot guessing games!

Nice! Thank you

[faj]

Sure there are rare sub sub types of clay, but you should think of them more like rare and legendary skins in Fortnite or something

As a father of three teenagers, that one made me laugh out loud in my office. I will let them know legendary clays and mythical teas are discussed here : who knows, they may become regulars on such a cool forum.

[.m.]

@Youzi Is this a case of wind/flower glaze?

[Bok]

The belief that vintage clay is better

There’s only one way to find out: compare next to each other side by side. Many people in Asia, myself included, have done that in the past and come to certain conclusions. I believe most people won’t notice the difference and/or with the tea they are brewing it won’t matter much anyway.

For myself I found that 60s hongni definitely yields better results than later one. The other clays I don’t really know.

For Zini, Zhuni, Duanni I do see a significant improvement if they are antique. I think it might have to do with different clay processing and firing methods. Once you tried one of those it’s pretty obvious. Not mentioning the much better craftsmanship.

But in regards to F1 I’d rather skip the 80s onwards and go for modern if I can’t have the old stuff...

[Youzi]

The belief that vintage clay is better

There’s only one way to find out: compare next to each other side by side. Many people in Asia, myself included, have done that in the past and come to certain conclusions. I believe most people won’t notice the difference and/or with the tea they are brewing it won’t matter much anyway.

For myself I found that 60s hongni definitely yields better results than later one. The other clays I don’t really know.

For Zini, Zhuni, Duanni I do see a significant improvement if they are antique. I think it might have to do with different clay processing and firing methods. Once you tried one of those it’s pretty obvious. Not mentioning the much better craftsmanship.

But in regards to F1 I’d rather skip the 80s onwards and go for modern if I can’t have the old stuff...

Yes, I'm still looking for a good old pot of the 60s or before, to compare, but I'm afraid of being too biased till I finally get there, but I'm trying to fight it.

I think the difference between modern pots and antique ones is not the material, but the processing and the way they made the pots. The raw materials are really a small part of the teapot making equation.

Making a teapot is like cooking, there's many aspects to it. You can buy your cabbage from whole foods or the local farmers market, but if you can't cook, the meal will be terrible anyway. On the contrary if you are a great cook, then it doesn't matter where you get you vegetables from until they are equally sufficient for the job.

[Youzi]

I love teapot guessing games!

Correct

It's an easy task for a trained eye, it seems.

[Youzi]

Youzi Is this a case of wind/flower glaze?

I'm not sure, there's not enough pictures of pots with wind glaze on the Internet to train up your eye, but those seem to have a pattern, which unless it's intentional, is quite strange. Usually wind glaze on zisha is more naturally looking, less patterned.

[Youzi]

Sure there are rare sub sub types of clay, but you should think of them more like rare and legendary skins in Fortnite or something: Cool.

Good to know Unfortunately, I have not found a real Zhuni teapot yet. On teachat.com I read that modern Zhuni is not Zhuni but often Hongni. Is this true? If yes, why do they use Hongni instead? Because it is easier to work with Hongni or because the clay is cheaper/more common?

To be honest there's much less good hongni on the market than zhuni. F1 used up too much of the supply from HLS, while zhuni was useless for making pure pots.

Of course if you consider waishan clay with iron oxide a hongni, then there's a lot.