Yixing

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Dresden
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:00 pm

You see... The key is to not be able to afford any of this stuff. Then authenticity is no longer an issue. :mrgreen:
.m.
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:51 pm

steanze wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 pm
Ok here's a few more!
Wow. Nice collection. Thanks for sharing. Are there some clear traits that can point with an old teapot like those for example to late Qing vs. to ROC?
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Bok
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:58 pm

What @steanze and @Baisao said.

I have the luxury to be a train ride away from people with loads of antiques and an open mind to share. The jumpstart into being sure to recognise old pots is to touch and feel them and peek into every hole. Once you’ve done that a few times, pictures of certain details suffice in many cases.

Some things you can learn if you are familiar with antiques and how patina develops in general as basic knowledge in pottery.

Below a Qinghuini-something blend from Roc era:
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Bok
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:02 pm

I also think China is still not the right place to learn about old pots (unless you know some very rich people). The Chinese are flooding Asia on the search for antiques... the real pieces and the knowledge has been lost in many cases with cultural revolution etc.

Taiwanese teachers make a good living at the moment re introducing some of that heritage...

Have a look at the fb group which is equally getting overwhelmed by Chinese with a thirst for this knowledge.
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steanze
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:12 pm

.m. wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:51 pm
steanze wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 pm
Ok here's a few more!
Wow. Nice collection. Thanks for sharing. Are there some clear traits that can point with an old teapot like those for example to late Qing vs. to ROC?
Happy to share :)
Good question. Late Qing and ROC can be tricky to distinguish. The workmanship can be similar in many respects, so first one dates the period to late Qing or ROC. Once it's established that it is not a modern replica, one can use information about the shape knowing in what periods it was more popular, and if there are marks or seal one can use knowledge about the workshop or about the style of the seal to narrow it down. There are a few other tiny details but they aren't there in all pots. Sometimes it's impossible to tell, and one has to stick to "late Qing or ROC". But in some cases one can say a bit more. For example, the Qinghuini pot has a shape that's not usually used in late Qing but is more common in ROC. Instead, the zini julunzhu has a seal that's used in late Qing but not in ROC. So in those cases I was able to tell...
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Bok
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Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:44 pm

.m. wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:51 pm
Are there some clear traits that can point with an old teapot like those for example to late Qing vs. to ROC?
As Steanze said, the transition period is rather murky, most of my collections falls into that category. Mine mostly do not have seal chops which takes out one identifying factor. It matters little though in terms of value, workmanship and clay are basically the same.

Mid-Qing is becoming prohibitively expensive and a lot more fakes and difficulties arise in terms of dating. Dr Lu mentioned to me once that he basically stops at Mid-Qing. Anything earlier is really diffuse and very risky to collect. Not many experts on those areas will openly share knowledge about how to date those. Basically at the limit only to long term customers.
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mudandleaves
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:15 am

Bok wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:02 pm
I also think China is still not the right place to learn about old pots (unless you know some very rich people). The Chinese are flooding Asia on the search for antiques... the real pieces and the knowledge has been lost in many cases with cultural revolution etc.

Taiwanese teachers make a good living at the moment re introducing some of that heritage...

Have a look at the fb group which is equally getting overwhelmed by Chinese with a thirst for this knowledge.
Very nice collection, but again there is little said to support the claims.

Your characterization of Mainland China is unfair and outdated. There was a period when this and other arts were undervalued, but this has long since passed. It is also common for many working in the field today to have started as an apprentice under a master, their master in turn learned from the previous generation of potters. Many of the potters who worked in F1, for example, learned their skills from masters who were making teapots before the factory system. Some of the F1 potters are still working today, and many younger potters learned from them. The organization changed, but the art survived.

It's true that Chinese collectors are buying up teapots from outside of the country. The expectation is that foreigners are often ignorant of the true market value of these antiques and collectors are more likely to pick one up at a bargain rate.

The antique market in China is very large. It's a very risky business because there are so many unknowns and so little confidence. Claims of authenticity are met with skepticism. Which is my point. I see lots of comments verging on defamation towards Yixing studios operating today that are completely unfounded. These studios are guilty until proven innocent. However, someone claiming they have a real antique need not provide any explanation beyond, "so-and-so" supports my claim.
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Bok
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:02 am

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:15 am
Very nice collection, but again there is little said to support the claims.
I am just sharing in order so that others may see something they might otherwise not have the chance to see too often so they can study and compare with what they have. No need to prove anything, I know what those pots are and that is enough for me. Those who know antiques will also know simply by looking at the details.

Surely not going to divulge all the details that in the sum make it possible to date these pots :roll:
mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:15 am
Your characterization of Mainland China is unfair and outdated. There was a period when this and other arts were undervalued, but this has long since passed. It is also common for many working in the field today to have started as an apprentice under a master, their master in turn learned from the previous generation of potters. Many of the potters who worked in F1, for example, learned their skills from masters who were making teapots before the factory system. Some of the F1 potters are still working today, and many younger potters learned from them. The organization changed, but the art survived.
I think you might have misunderstood my meaning here. The problem is not so much the transition of knowledge of how to create these pots, but that the old teapots are not to be found as easily on the ground, unless in collectors hands. So to go to Yixing or elsewhere in China and hope to get access to antiques and learn about them is more difficult than to go to, say Malaysia, Singapore or Taiwan. These were the first to amass massive collections of antique Yixing and it is still like that for a while to be.
mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:15 am
It's true that Chinese collectors are buying up teapots from outside of the country. The expectation is that foreigners are often ignorant of the true market value of these antiques and collectors are more likely to pick one up at a bargain rate.
Not really anymore, others came there first... see above. Most people they buy from are also hardly complete foreigners, rather than the Chinese diaspora that spread all over Asia centuries ago, keeping a lot of traditions alive that had been swept away by cultural revolution and other hardships. Which you can not only see in regards to tea culture, but also martial arts and other fields.

You are right that things have been catching up, but it is a long process in my opinion.

Anyways, I am happy about anyone leaving the antiques aside and buying new Yixing, less competition for me :mrgreen:
Chadrinkincat
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:31 am

@mudandleaves
It’s always good to be skeptical, but what sorta proof do you need? A certificate of authenticity from potter that made it?

So and so’s (Dr. LV) opinion holds a lot of weight imho seeing as that person is considered a TW authority on older yixing. I sorta assume at this point you’ve never seen his book and likely have no clue as to who he is.
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mudandleaves
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:52 pm

Chadrinkincat wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:31 am
mudandleaves
It’s always good to be skeptical, but what sorta proof do you need? A certificate of authenticity from potter that made it?

So and so’s (Dr. LV) opinion holds a lot of weight imho seeing as that person is considered a TW authority on older yixing. I sorta assume at this point you’ve never seen his book and likely have no clue as to who he is.
I was hoping for the same kind of explanation and evidence that others are expected to provide to support a claim. Using the name Dr Lv Qi Lin is not a stand in for either.
mael
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:02 am
No need to prove anything, I know what those pots are and that is enough for me. Those who know antiques will also know simply by looking at the details.

Surely not going to divulge all the details that in the sum make it possible to date these pots :roll:
Why not what is wrong with sharing knowledge ?
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steanze
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:48 pm

mael wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 pm
Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:02 am
No need to prove anything, I know what those pots are and that is enough for me. Those who know antiques will also know simply by looking at the details.

Surely not going to divulge all the details that in the sum make it possible to date these pots :roll:
Why not what is wrong with sharing knowledge ?
It can be used to make better fakes. That knowledge needs to be earned by studying and observing teapots...
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steanze
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:25 pm

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:52 pm
Chadrinkincat wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:31 am
mudandleaves
It’s always good to be skeptical, but what sorta proof do you need? A certificate of authenticity from potter that made it?

So and so’s (Dr. LV) opinion holds a lot of weight imho seeing as that person is considered a TW authority on older yixing. I sorta assume at this point you’ve never seen his book and likely have no clue as to who he is.
I was hoping for the same kind of explanation and evidence that others are expected to provide to support a claim. Using the name Dr Lv Qi Lin is not a stand in for either.
You admittedly say that you don't know anything about antique pots, but Dr Lv's view is not good enough for you? Don't you wonder why everybody on this forum who knows about old yixing says they're obviously authentic? You could not find a single person who knows about old yixing and has doubts about these pots.

It is a bit as if someone came here and said, I don't know anything about puerh, but I think that Dayi 7542 might be yancha. Then everyone who has had puerh would say it's obviously puerh, and report that even Deng Shihai said it is puerh. But he'd say "look there isn't a written certificate of authenticity saying that it is puerh"...

You can keep believing that those pots are replicas, you can even believe that Dayi 7542 is yancha if you want, but that won't be very useful for you to learn about old yixing.
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steanze
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:39 pm

Interior views...

ROC duanni:
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IMG_20190109_002026410.jpg (84.93 KiB) Viewed 757 times
ROC qinghuini:
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IMG_20190108_234033150_HDR.jpg (48.72 KiB) Viewed 757 times
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Baisao
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:42 pm

mudandleaves wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:52 pm
I was hoping for the same kind of explanation and evidence that others are expected to provide to support a claim. Using the name Dr Lv Qi Lin is not a stand in for either.
Ok, we've heard from the Defense, now let's here from the Prosecution: please point out how these are not LQER.
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