Nixing, Jianshui, etc

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Maybe these should be split in to two threads at some point, but for now just seemed nice to have a place for non-yixing info/advice/discussion.

For those of us who tend to favor shou, hei cha, or other teas that need more heat retention nixing and jianshui seem to be the smarter way to go. Both can also be more budget-friendly options over vintage Yixing pots.

With so much emphasis constantly placed on yixing and my somewhat contrarian attitude has had me looking at alternatives for quite a while. After much looking around and waiting I recently got a nice medium-walled nixing which so far has been my liu bao pot and performing really well at it. The heat retention is great and has made some of my base-line teas much richer and given them a fuller almost creamy liquor. I'll try and get a photo up soon. At 120ml its a good size for liu bao where I do lower leaf with long steeps. I have a slightly smaller jianshui on the way too which will maybe shift things around a bit to see if maybe one or the other pairs better with shou, or if both will be liu bao pots, the smaller just being for either pricier teas or those that go better with lots of shorter steeps.

So, who else has some lovely nixing or jianshu?

[Balthazar]

Interesting topic. I have no personal experience with either kind, but have heard positive things about Nixing for heicha, shu and even roasted oolong.

How muting do you find the pots you own?

[Bok]

I am curious as well, but was has kept me from ever getting one, is that I have never seen a design I liked... they seem to be more basic on the pottery skill level and sophistication. Most seem very thick-walled and clunky. Would be interesting to see how early pottery of this kind looked like, but they seem a more recent addition.

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Good question on the muting... so far I've mostly been trying the nixing out with a lot of lighter and even raw liu bao that has all been pretty clean. I only have one at the moment that had some wetter HK-style imitation storage that you can still notice on it, but I haven't opened the next box of it- I'll be sure to report back how that goes. Prior to this pot I've mostly used porcelain both because its what I had but also I want to taste everything that is actually there, but I find even my smaller and heavier porcelain pot doesn't keep heat well enough for older darker leaves. My only other stoneware pot was too big for gong-fu so I mostly just used it for doing longer 3 steep liu bao brews. I can say though that my baseline liu bao which I've brewed every-which way and I know very well came out quite different in nixing- everything just sorta amplified, in a positive way.

As for shape/design... I don't know about nixing so much but my understanding for jianshui is that it needs to be wheel-thrown and made with thicker walls because of how the clay behaves. I don't know how much of that though could be something inherent about the clay (cracking easily if too thin?) and/or combined with maybe there not having been a need to develop techniques for thinner walls? For me the thicker walls is exactly why I went for these pots, but I can imagine for something delicate that can get easily ruined from being stewed between brews its not what you would go for anyway - maybe a nixing or jianshui gaiwan would offer better control there. There is some variation, but usually looking a bit higher on the price scale, otherwise you are mostly looking at egg type shapes it seems for jianshui. Though both nixing and jianshui have their own charms- nixing seems to lend itself well to carving designs and I've seen quite some variation in shapes- again I don't know if the trend towards more fang gu/rong tian type shapes is a stylistic/traditional thing over necessity? Jianshui seems as though it can also have some pretty elaborate carving as well as really interesting inlay effects and can be either polished or matte. I prefer a simple/modest look myself, though some of the nixing pots with simple caligraphic drawings of things like corn or crickets I do find appealing. I don't have much to compare it to in-person like lots of vintage yixing pots, but I can say the nixing I got from Mud and Leaves is very well made to me and handles very well. I suppose its a personal preference thing - I find a lot of yixing pots that aren't very basic shapes pretty tacky/ugly, and I like the look of the brown and black clays, though white Jianshui is also pretty appealing and I imagine would get a nice patina. Either way for both clays it could be interesting if it were possible to commission artists to see what other things might be possible that hadn't been considered either in terms of shape, rougher textures, so on.

[Youzi]

I am curious as well, but was has kept me from ever getting one, is that I have never seen a design I liked... they seem to be more basic on the pottery skill level and sophistication. Most seem very thick-walled and clunky. Would be interesting to see how early pottery of this kind looked like, but they seem a more recent addition.

Because mostly other pottery cultures other than yixing and chaozhou focused more on flower vases or jars, or in the cases of Jianshui, it's famous about its chicken soup steamer/maker.

Maybe Nixing could have teapots from old times, but info is very limited on that.

[Bok]

Because mostly other pottery cultures other than yixing and chaozhou focused more on flower vases or jars, or in the cases of Jianshui, it's famous about its chicken soup steamer/maker.
Maybe Nixing could have teapots from old times, but info is very limited on that.

Thanks, I suspected something like that. Also explains the rougher nature of them.

[Balthazar]

The Nixing pottery supposedly has a history of 1300+ years, so it's interesting to hear that the teapot focus is relatively recent (would be even more interesting to know when these teapots started being produced and became more widespread).

One interesting tidbit from an earlier tealifehk listing:

K.S. Lo, who wrote several books on Yixing pottery, once wrote that the clay in Nixing was virtually indistinguishable from Yixing clay

For those who don't know, K. S. Lo is the author of the now unfortunately out of print "The Stonewares of Yixing: From the Ming Period to the Present Day" and the owner of a legendary collection that was later donated to the Hong Kong Museum of Art.

I wish there was a reference to the text and some more context, e.g. "indistinguishable" in terms of looks, feel or performance? And what type of yixing clay are we talking about here? Perhaps @tealifehk, if he still frequents these parts of the teasphere, remembers the source

Personally, I find some of the pots quite charming. Maybe because I have an affinity for simple, rural and "crude" styles. Some of the ones with carvings for sale at chawangshop for instance (e.g. this one, with its big, crude characters), are pieces I would be glad to own. Then again, they go for prices where I would not take the gamble without knowing more about how they perform compared to yixing at the same price point... I might just do a bit more through research before next time I go to China, and pick one up while I'm there.

[Bok]

One interesting tidbit from an earlier tealifehk listing:

K.S. Lo, who wrote several books on Yixing pottery, once wrote that the clay in Nixing was virtually indistinguishable from Yixing clay

I have not the faintest idea how that could even remotely be the case...

[Balthazar]

I found it surprising too, especially coming from someone who knows Yixing better than most people. Which is why I'd be interested to see the source and read it in context.

[Bok]

I found it surprising too, especially coming from someone who knows Yixing better than most people. Which is why I'd be interested to see the source and read it in context.

Just because people publish books does not mean they know. The people I respect the most in terms of Yixing, or tea knowledge for that matter, rarely ever say or write anything but vague statements in public.

[Youzi]

Because mostly other pottery cultures other than yixing and chaozhou focused more on flower vases or jars, or in the cases of Jianshui, it's famous about its chicken soup steamer/maker.
Maybe Nixing could have teapots from old times, but info is very limited on that.

Thanks, I suspected something like that. Also explains the rougher nature of them.

I did a quick search on Nixing and Jianshui, and it seems to me, that "Modern" Nixing pottery started in the 1850s while Jianshui also in the Late Qing dynasty. Both Nixing and Jianshui focused on Vases, and other decorative items. Nixing started making teapots in the 20th century, while Jianshui started in the 21st.

@Balthazar
That's really interesting, My understanding is that Nixing is a mixed clay from the two sides of the river, and the base material is already a clay.
While in Yixing the base material is Rocks, which have to be made into clay first. Therefore the two cannot be similar in this aspect, unless one calls mud and rocks the same.

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I found it surprising too, especially coming from someone who knows Yixing better than most people. Which is why I'd be interested to see the source and read it in context.

Just because people publish books does not mean they know. The people I respect the most in terms of Yixing, or tea knowledge for that matter, rarely ever say or write anything but vague statements in public.

sure, although as stated context is everything here- do they mean in terms of performance of nixing vs particular yixing clays? maybe they mean in regard to the effect on particular teas? maybe the statement means that for most drinkers it isn't noticeable. again I don't have lots of nice vintage pots here to compare things to, but for example I've been under the impression that shou is rather forgiving and probably won't see drastic differences between a lot of different clays. also since yixing itself seems like it can mean a lot of different things. maybe the statement just means you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns for most drinkers and/or teas. also considering Jay tends to focus on teas of a particular style, I imagine that plays a part. perhaps some personal research is needed to find out for sure

[Balthazar]

Just because people publish books does not mean they know. The people I respect the most in terms of Yixing, or tea knowledge for that matter, rarely ever say or write anything but vague statements in public.

It's never a guarantee, but if I had to make a choice between a well-respected scholar and collector and someone who doesn't "say or write anything but vague statements in public" I know where I would put my money.

I'd also be hesitant to dismiss someone based on how they were paraphrased on a tea vendor's page. Again, that's why I'd like to see the source for that snippet, to see how (of even if) he really wrote what he was paraphrased as writing. A search for "nixing" in the mentioned book doesn't return a single result.


@Youzi Appreciate the research

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@Youzi yeah thanks for the info!

Heres an article from a few years back on Jianshui from Crimson Lotus on what sounds like their first time there - https://crimsonlotustea.com/blogs/puerh ... ao-pottery

Also a nice little info video from Bitterleaf-

So if the beginning of teaware becoming a more prominent focus there is only in the last 30 years or so, it seems like it is a pretty exciting/interesting thing. Maybe some things aren't as refined as elsewhere on that end but it also means there is still a lot of possibility for unique styles and development to really come into its own.

The cookware history also explains why there seem to be some really lovely tea jars coming from there as well.

[tealifehk]

The Nixing pottery supposedly has a history of 1300+ years, so it's interesting to hear that the teapot focus is relatively recent (would be even more interesting to know when these teapots started being produced and became more widespread).

One interesting tidbit from an earlier tealifehk listing:

K.S. Lo, who wrote several books on Yixing pottery, once wrote that the clay in Nixing was virtually indistinguishable from Yixing clay

For those who don't know, K. S. Lo is the author of the now unfortunately out of print "The Stonewares of Yixing: From the Ming Period to the Present Day" and the owner of a legendary collection that was later donated to the Hong Kong Museum of Art.

I wish there was a reference to the text and some more context, e.g. "indistinguishable" in terms of looks, feel or performance? And what type of yixing clay are we talking about here? Perhaps tealifehk, if he still frequents these parts of the teasphere, remembers the source

Personally, I find some of the pots quite charming. Maybe because I have an affinity for simple, rural and "crude" styles. Some of the ones with carvings for sale at chawangshop for instance (e.g. this one, with its big, crude characters), are pieces I would be glad to own. Then again, they go for prices where I would not take the gamble without knowing more about how they perform compared to yixing at the same price point... I might just do a bit more through research before next time I go to China, and pick one up while I'm there.

He wrote something to that effect in that very book! I don't remember the exact statement he made, but in effect he said the clay was identical. I disagree, but it was an interesting statement for one of the most prolific and well-known Yixing collectors of all time to make!

I often do suggest Nixing over modern zini, due to how dirty the market is, and how often 'purple' clay is adulterated in today's world. Nixing can perform quite closely (but I find good zini to perform slightly better).