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Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:30 am
by Kupuntu
I've recently paid more attention to various websites selling modern teapots and I also decided to try out their pots (not here yet as I just ordered both this week).
I'm especially curious about "zhuni" and "di cao qing", more specifically DCQ clay mined from the original Huang Long Shan mines. I don't know enough about HLS clay and its current status (how much is still left over from all the clay mined from HLS during its operation, before its closure? how expensive is said clay? is it available to potters?) to say for sure but I'm curious if anyone here has any info about that.
I don't particularly care whether or not my pots are made from original HLS clay as long as they're good pots, but I'd like to know if someone more knowledgeable could chime in about whether or not those could even be what they claim to be. For the record, both pots were over $100 but under $150.
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:31 pm
by Youzi
In a short:
Is Real Di Cao Qing and Zhuni still exists?
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm
by pantry
From what I gather, clay cost is just a small portion of the retail price of the pot. Say, a pot that retails for $120 probably used about $5 worth of clay, etc. However, you’ll still have to buy it in bulk so you need some capital for the more exotic clay. Regarding whether those clays still exist, every potter in yixing would say yes, but only the person/studio you’re talking to has it
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:38 pm
by Kupuntu
pantry wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm
From what I gather, clay cost is just a small portion of the retail price of the pot. Say, a pot that retails for $120 probably used about $5 worth of clay, etc. However, you’ll still have to buy it in bulk so you need some capital for the more exotic clay. Regarding whether those clays still exist, every potter in yixing would say yes, but only the person/studio you’re talking to has it
It probably shouldn't be very expensive, it just makes me wonder if it actually exists. And yes, I have heard the same story about how it still exists, but *only* we have it...
I do feel like there's no real way to tell how much of old HLS clay there still is available somewhere unless they've tried to buy it themselves (and could identify it being the real thing).
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:08 pm
by pantry
Kupuntu wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:38 pm
pantry wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm
From what I gather, clay cost is just a small portion of the retail price of the pot. Say, a pot that retails for $120 probably used about $5 worth of clay, etc. However, you’ll still have to buy it in bulk so you need some capital for the more exotic clay. Regarding whether those clays still exist, every potter in yixing would say yes, but only the person/studio you’re talking to has it
It probably shouldn't be very expensive, it just makes me wonder if it actually exists. And yes, I have heard the same story about how it still exists, but *only* we have it...
I do feel like there's no real way to tell how much of old HLS clay there still is available somewhere unless they've tried to buy it themselves (and could identify it being the real thing).
I have no doubt they still exist. But when some vendors market all their $1xx pots as Benshan Clay X, while others could only offer non-benshan yuankuang at that price point (and their Benshan at double the price) it makes me wonder. These are the popular and reputable sellers too.
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:49 pm
by Bok
pantry wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:08 pm
These are the popular and reputable sellers too.
What I just wrote on the other thread, also applies here: What is popular is not necessarily right. McDo is pretty popular, is it quality, healthy food?
Some people are elected by the majority of their folks(at least in theory) – are they therefore good people or at least qualified? ha this is fun
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:50 pm
by Kupuntu
Bok wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:49 pm
pantry wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:08 pm
These are the popular and reputable sellers too.
What I just wrote on the other thread, also applies here: What is popular is not necessarily right. McDo is pretty popular, is it quality, healthy food?
Some people are elected by the majority of their folks(at least in theory) – are they therefore good people or at least qualified? ha this is fun
One would hope so, haha. But yes, I know what you mean. I'm more concerned about my teapot being safe than it being where it is claimed to be from, but I also wouldn't mind knowing the latter.
Thanks for the replies, does anyone know anything more regarding this?
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm
by Bok
Sometimes the lack of reply also tells you something: no one seems to know for sure or can claim with 100% certainty
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:11 pm
by pantry
Kupuntu wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 5:50 pm
Thanks for the replies, does anyone know anything more regarding this?
I posted a research paper here:
viewtopic.php?p=24351#p24351
It appears that the ores from different mines have a 'signature', so there's a way to find out scientifically.
Relaying from what I've been told:
Most potters in Yixing buy clays from clay masters, who guard their recipes (so they won't tell the potters exactly what go into the clay mix). Everything goes by reputation, and you need to know the right person to get the right clays, and so on and so forth.
While I'd love to get the original mine clays for use and educational purposes, I've given up.
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:06 pm
by Bok
Honestly, I couldn’t care less where exactly the clay comes from, as long as it’s clean and the price is in relation to quality.
Same for tea, I don’t care if they write Dayuling on the bag, as long as the price relates to the quality and taste of the tea.
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:06 am
by Youzi
Yeah, it's plausible. HLS is rare, but not that rare, but not like it really matters where it's from.
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 5:33 pm
by Kupuntu
Bok wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm
Sometimes the lack of reply also tells you something: no one seems to know for sure or can claim with 100% certainty
Oh absolutely. In this case it's a positive thing haha. Nobody seems to be keen on saying it be true.
pantry wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 7:11 pm
Kupuntu wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 5:50 pm
Thanks for the replies, does anyone know anything more regarding this?
I posted a research paper here:
viewtopic.php?p=24351#p24351
It appears that the ores from different mines have a 'signature', so there's a way to find out scientifically.
Relaying from what I've been told:
Most potters in Yixing buy clays from clay masters, who guard their recipes (so they won't tell the potters exactly what go into the clay mix). Everything goes by reputation, and you need to know the right person to get the right clays, and so on and so forth.
While I'd love to get the original mine clays for use and educational purposes, I've given up.
Interesting paper. I can imagine you'd need connections to get your hands on the original mine clay.
Bok wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:06 pm
Honestly, I couldn’t care less where exactly the clay comes from, as long as it’s clean and the price is in relation to quality.
Same for tea, I don’t care if they write Dayuling on the bag, as long as the price relates to the quality and taste of the tea.
Hmm, in my case I just wanted to know if it's plausible. I don't want to call something HLS clay if it absolutely cannot be that. But if it's possible then I don't mind.
Youzi wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 9:06 am
Yeah, it's plausible. HLS is rare, but not that rare, but not like it really matters where it's from.
Thanks! Now I feel like I have 3-5 new topic ideas to start from this topic
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:28 pm
by TeaTotaling
Kupuntu wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 10:30 am
I've recently paid more attention to various websites selling modern teapots and I also decided to try out their pots (not here yet as I just ordered both this week).
I'm especially curious about "zhuni" and "di cao qing", more specifically DCQ clay mined from the original Huang Long Shan mines. I don't know enough about HLS clay and its current status (how much is still left over from all the clay mined from HLS during its operation, before its closure? how expensive is said clay? is it available to potters?) to say for sure but I'm curious if anyone here has any info about that.
I don't particularly care whether or not my pots are made from original HLS clay as long as they're good pots, but I'd like to know if someone more knowledgeable could chime in about whether or not those could even be what they claim to be. For the record, both pots were over $100 but under $150.
Who did you happen to order from?
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:44 pm
by TeaTotaling
@Kupuntu I found this article informative. Yixing Clay lore is a mysterious topic indeed.
http://archive.globalteahut.org/article/954
Re: Claims about HLS/vintage/zhuni clay in modern teapots
Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:06 pm
by Youzi
That article is really nice, and a good introduction, but there are many inaccuracies in it.
