Looking to pair some pots. Ideas on where to begin?

[OCTO]

OCTO

What's the reason for that design? Could never understand....

Ergonomics? That's the only thing I can think of.

@Youzi

The fat and stumpy snout and handle designs are a direct influence of two Sr Masters from early Factory era.. one of them is Master He DaHong, the other I can't recall the name.

But I guess it's just an artistic expression. I have to admit, ergonomically, it feels great in the hands.

Cheers!

[OCTO]

OCTO Youzi
Maybe it's neither ergonomics nor practicality.... Just contemporary artistry.

If I was collecting pots (or had the money for it ) I'd be into these kinds of designs.

this is the answer... checkout He Daohong (何道洪). He is the master who introduced these "hypertrophic" components, very elegantly done in his work...

more info here: https://www.zisha.com/news/18947.shtml

@steanze

BINGO!!... Arigato sensei!!

[steanze]

steanze

BINGO!!... Arigato sensei!!

[gradiva]

So I’ve continued to do line tastings of one tea in 7 different pots. It’s fun, but I find it requires a lot focus and concentration. And now that I couldn’t help but adding an eighth pot to the mix, I can’t help but wonder: is it too many pots? Should I divide them up in groups?

[gradiva]

Btw, this is the 8th. Basically a garage sale find. Low tuition. Apparently high iron HongNi. Clearly handmade. And clearly with not a high level workmanship. Comments?

[OCTO]

So I’ve continued to do line tastings of one tea in 7 different pots. It’s fun, but I find it requires a lot focus and concentration. And now that I couldn’t help but adding an eighth pot to the mix, I can’t help but wonder: is it too many pots? Should I divide them up in groups?

If you are finding it a little too much to handle.... then reduce the amount of pots... I usually do 3 or 4 at one go.

Cheers!

[gradiva]

So I’ve continued to do line tastings of one tea in 7 different pots. It’s fun, but I find it requires a lot focus and concentration. And now that I couldn’t help but adding an eighth pot to the mix, I can’t help but wonder: is it too many pots? Should I divide them up in groups?

If you are finding it a little too much to handle.... then reduce the amount of pots... I usually do 3 or 4 at one go.

Cheers!

I am, actually. A bit overwhelmed. Difficult at moments to compare. Especially with puerhs, I find. How would you divide them up at this stage? Let’s say four and four... shall I put all ZiNis in one group, which then leaves Hongni, ZhuNi, Jiangponi and wood fired DuanNi in the other? Or make each group as diverse as possible (one purple, one black, one red, one (with) yellow clay? Am I overthinking it?

[faj]

So I’ve continued to do line tastings of one tea in 7 different pots. It’s fun, but I find it requires a lot focus and concentration. And now that I couldn’t help but adding an eighth pot to the mix, I can’t help but wonder: is it too many pots? Should I divide them up in groups?

Though comparing brews this way is interesting, I find there are realities that make it much less fulfilling than it may seem at first.

To me, the showstopper is that we cannot "reset" our mouths, noses and brains between teas. Good teas have persistence, right? So how are you to tell how much of the immediate sensory input is from your last sip, and how much from the tea(s) you tasted just before? Maybe some people can do that, I can't. Because of the overlap, tasting teas in close succession feels to me like trying to compare two musical pieces by playing them at the same time.

If I were a professional taster/buyer, I guess I would have no other choice, but I am not, so I have developed my own habit for "critical tasting" if I may call it this way. I will typically "work" on one tea at a time, one session per day, typically always at the same time of day. I try to vary one parameter per day (change teapot, change infusion parameters) and I take notes. I rely on recent sensory memory, which is not perfect, but not worthless either. I go back to the "recipes" which I found successful to check if I still agree with myself. It may introduce some bias or time lag, but it also allows me to identify what I prefer for one given tea by trying several combinations.

Aside from that, there are many other considerations. On a practical level, making things really comparable (infusion temperature, duration, drink temperature, etc.) is difficult and can take some fun out of the experience. But do you even want do eliminate all differences? Not really : ideally, you would want to compare the best brew you can get out of one "candidate" combination (tea/teapot/water/etc.) with the best brew you can get from another one. Identifying some parameters as "fixed" in the interest of "fairness" or "driving out bias", is a bit like saying that in order to tell if you prefer sencha or yancha, you should compare them brewed with the same water/leaf ratio, same teapot, same water temperature, same infusion duration...

Tasting several teas in close succession is fun and kind of festive, but to me it is not a silver bullet or a definitive way to judge or enjoy teas.

[gradiva]

Yes, I totally see your point @faj. Thank you so much for your very detailed comments.

I think perhaps I am able to reset my senses if I make a long enough pause between sips of different samples. Or maybe the contrast between one pot from the rest when tasting the TGY was so marked, that I am chalking it up to my ability to pick up the subtleties rather than how different one clay’s effect was. Either way, a clear problem for me is that with so many pots, and especially with them not being full, there’s the added difficulty of keeping tea at similar temperature, so I have found myself rushing through, which kind of defeats the purpose in a way...

I like how you have chosen to go about this pairing business, and I will try your method, adding my mood as a parameter (welcome, bias!) though right now I think I want to keep doing this line tasting, but with half of the number of pots per session and see if or how much that changes things for me.

I would be super interested to know what kind of pots/clays you’ve been playing with and what you’ve paired them with. (Particularly also because I think I distinctly remember a very helpful thread that you started asking for suggestions for modern clay pots. Curious about what you ended up getting based on all the knowledge you gathered and produced.)

[faj]

Or maybe the contrast between one pot from the rest when tasting the TGY was so marked, that I am chalking it up to my ability to pick up the subtleties rather than how different one clay’s effect was.

I would agree that head-to-head comparisons might put the focus on big differences (already easy to detect in separate tastings), but cause some subtle differences to be lost or noticed less because of the aromas overlapping.

I would be super interested to know what kind of pots/clays you’ve been playing with and what you’ve paired them with.

I am not at the point I would make recommendations. I am a relatively inexperienced tea drinker, and other members can certainly provide much better advice. What I tend to say, however, is that I find it worthwhile to try teas with several pots, and in my experience teapots are not on a single-dimensional scale from "worse" to "best". Even matching teas within a single type (say, sencha), there is no systematic "best teapot". I guess with time I will become better at predicting which pot is likely to pair well with a given tea, but for now it is mostly trial-and-error.

[gradiva]

You are making me think @faj that head to head comparisons for me as a newbie who has been mostly brewing in porcelain gaiwan (except for Japanese teas) and in possession of a variety of pots might be a good start so I can potentially see if/how my different clays generally perform. Then, when I have that long first lesson down, your method might be something to engage with when I am a little less green, and even as part of the actual challenge of trying to pair each pot to a type of tea, which by the way, I realize I am not even focused on or trying to rush anymore. I actually just want to experiment and play and learn, and if my pots remain unpaired for a long time, it’s totally fine.

And just to clarify, it wasn’t so much recommendations or advice per se that I was asking you for, but rather a further peek about your processes and whatever conclusions you might’ve come to. I like the idea of comparing notes, I guess, especially because with every brew I become more and more curious and fascinated by how context-dependent and wildly unpredictable this yixing pairing business can be.

[faj]

And just to clarify, it wasn’t so much recommendations or advice per se that I was asking you for, but rather a further peek about your processes and whatever conclusions you might’ve come to.

At this time, aside from one modern Yixing pot, I have gotten Japanese teapots. For now I am getting relatively small (around 100ml) teapots mostly, in different clays, trying to get a feel for the range. I drink mostly Japanese teas, but not exclusively, and I am not trying to dedicate pots to teas for now.

When I started drinking tea, I had lots of open bags at all times, having a session of each once in a while. I found out I was too often drinking green tea that was a bit stale, so I became a bit more disciplined. I try to have a couple of green tea bags open at a time (say, one sencha and one gyokuro), which I will each have daily or every other day. I also started exploring each tea more in depth. I typically start with relatively safe parameters with one teapot chosen at random. If I get something obviously wrong I change that first, and then play around the other parameters one or two at a time.

For instance, I am currently working on an Anji Bai Cha bag. First Chinese green tea I purchase in a long time. I tried in in a gaiwan (mine is glass, maybe a bit unorthodox but I like it). It was an instant success. In the next few days, I tried three different clay teapots with the same infusion parameters. First was a reduction fired Mumyoi. It worked well. I could not tell if it was as good as the gaiwan, too close to call without further tests. Then a Banko teapot. Ok, but a notch below. This morning, I tried it in Kobiwako, which I expected to be a poor match, and I turned out to be right. I will now go back to the gaiwan and reduction fired pot, compare them more closely, and then try infusing with temperature a bit higher and a bit lower. At some point I will probably try infusing less leaf for longer. It takes many sessions to map a tea, and I am, in a sense, only scratching the surface (water, more teapots, etc.). This being said, by the time I am done, I typically have a good feel for (a) is that tea I want to purchase again and (b) if so, what are the successful ways I have found to infuse it.

If I had to give my method a name, I would call it "disciplined trial-and-error". I am ignorant and I know of no other tea enthusiast around here to show me the way, but I compensate for that by being stubborn . Now maybe you get why I do not feel like I should be giving advice...

[gradiva]

Sorry I left this thread hanging for a while. It's been weird times.

First of all, thank you @faj for your very detailed and thoughtful comments. Somewhat opposite to you, until fairly recently, I was only drinking japanese greens (in very diverse japanese teaware). Then I started getting into Chinese greens and now I'm full-on (and all over the place) with oolongs, blacks and puerhs. That's why these days I am only brewing the occasional hojicha and maybe a green or two that comes in taster sizes because like you I try not to leave already-opened bags of greens hanging out for too long in my cupboard or fridge. (Btw, I am deeply curious about the japanese teaware and teas you've been combining them with. Could be an entire thread in the Japanese section, but please do feel free to share if you have the time and inclination. I'm particularly partial to hearing about the Kobiwako, since I've been considering adding one to my collection. And would you mind telling me what kind of modern yixing you ended up getting?)

So now a more general update: I've continued to do a bit of testing during this down time. I first reduced each test to 3 teapots tops because more was too overwhelming. Sometimes I only used 2. The way I do it is brew in a gaiwan and then pour into the yixings, leave it for 10-15 seconds and then pour into cups. With this method it's been easier to identify the clays that clearly DON'T work at all with some of the teas I drink more often, than the ones that are a perfect match. Perhaps, except for the zhuni and the hongni when tasting fruity green oolongs. Every other pot flattened them too much, so first conclusion is for zhuni and hongni for gaoshan and tgy (though my zhuni also works pretty well for yancha, some shengs, oriental beauty, a winter dancong, and a couple of blacks...) and the duanni for one particular floral green oolong.

So far this is what I got. What I've sort of narrowed down (just a bit) by brewing in porcelain and pouring into the pots:

-ZHUNI (wendan): nothing a big no, but especially good for gaoshan, tgy, yancha, dan cong, oriental beauty, sheng, fujian hong cha

-HONGNI (ju lei): works with pretty much everything, but especially with gaoshan, tgy, dan congs, yancha, dark oolongs, hongcha,

-JIANGPONI (fei yun): tricky clay. So far, dark high roast oolongs, smoky hong chas, funky shengs seem to work well.

-DICAOQING (sangbian): particularly great for a heicha I just got, puerhs, hong cha, dark oolongs, aged white and some shengs

-ZINI (xiang yu): dark oolongs (especially rolled Taiwanese and yancha), shou, hong cha

-wood fired DUANNI (long dan): sheng, shou, heicha, and teas that are too smoky or funky. It also made one particularly floral oolong that is normal too much for me much more drinkable.

-ZINI (shi diao ti liang) : shou, heicha, yunnan hong cha, and dark oolongs

-HEI LIAO (li xing) : shou, heicha, hong cha, aged white, dark oolongs

-MANTIANXING (xi shi): shou, heicha, aged white


Next step is concentrating more in brewing in the pots with different parameters to see how shape and size affect the tea. I think I will try your "disciplined trial-and-error" method, @faj and choose one tea and one of the pots that made it through and start. (Btw, love to read more about your note-taking. Do you have a notebook? How detailed are you? Again, this is not asking for advice, but about wanting to learn about people's different methods, procedures, modes of playing. I guess for inspiration, mainly.)

[Bok]

Nice and interesting progress you made there! Very diligent and patient.

I’d add one caveat: some clays, especially if they are new, do only show their full potential after a while of being used. I’m my experience, especially Zini can take some time until it’s at its best.

[faj]

I'm particularly partial to hearing about the Kobiwako, since I've been considering adding one to my collection.

I find it has a clear impact on the tea, making it markedly sweeter. I also find it can soften the high notes. I have used it less in the past few months, as it was outflanked most of the time by reduction fired pots that give the tea a more "salty" presentation, which I find preserves the impact of the high notes better.

And would you mind telling me what kind of modern yixing you ended up getting?)

It is a "zhuni" pot from M&L. I have used it for oolongs on an infrequent basis. Nothing to complain about, but I have not made head-to-head comparisons with my other pots and I do not have experience with other Yixing pots to compare. In other words, it is not a teapot I have something really useful to say about.

(Btw, love to read more about your note-taking. Do you have a notebook? How detailed are you?

It is a spreadsheet, with a bunch of columns. Each row is one tasting. I take note of what tea it is, teapot used, water used, date, water-to-leaf ratio and whether I preheat the pot or not. Then, for each infusion (in additional columns of the same row) I indicate the temperature and duration, along with notes. I can easily use a filter or a search to quickly refer back to previous tastings.

I do not take notes of all my tastings, only those I feel are worth remembering (narrowing down if I like a tea or not, and what my preferred teapot and parameters are). Sometimes I will comment on an infusion or two only, sometimes I will go further... Basically, I try not repeating myself, though I will sometimes take notes reinforcing a previous conclusion (e.g. "This, indeed, is a successful way to make that tea"). To me, these are notes to my future self to guide purchase decisions and choice of parameters, not a "journal", so the notes tend to be short and descriptive.