Puzzled wannabe Yixing buyer

swordofmytriumph
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:52 pm

Bok wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:41 am
In that case I’d focus on the tea first! For that a simple thin walled gaiwan is best.
+1
Clay teapots really are about “aiming for perfection”, you put it, @faj. The goal is to take a good tea and make it even better. Matching the right tea to the right pot requires you to first be able to taste small nuances in a tea’s flavor, to fine tune and adjust leaf proportions and temperatures. This is all stuff that comes with experience. Your money would be better spent getting to know your tea, at least for a while. Not trying to be a killjoy or anything like that, I just think that if you have a finite amount of money, it would be wiser to spend it on good tea.
swordofmytriumph
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:01 pm

Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
I also don't like to trust others, so instead I prefer to look at their financial and economical interests. M&L's main marketing and their core business is high quality Ruyao, Jingdezhen Porcelain and Yixing teapots, as opposed to most other western vendors who's main focus is tea, like YS, King Tea Mall, etc.
Also, for the record, I have bought their Jingdezhen porcelain before, and if was extremely high quality. My favorite gaiwan is one I bought from them. If you do decide to take up Bok on his suggestion to get a good, thin walled gaiwan, I would not hesitate to recommend their gaiwans.
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:24 pm

swordofmytriumph wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:10 am
Baisao, what kind of clay was the pot you got from Gao?
It was jiangponi. It looks like a slightly redder xini with white inclusions. The affect on tea is not as dramatic as xini, more like hongni. It’s perfectly neutral in texture and flavor. Bearing in mind this is one sample I’d say it deserves more interest/exploration.
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:29 pm

I’d like to just go on the record and thank the OP for the robust discussion. Too often we give our time and knowledge to a new member only to be ghosted, which has caused me to begin withholding knowledge since it will be ignored or not appreciated. I know I am not the only one.

So, thank you!
faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:34 pm

swordofmytriumph wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:52 pm
Clay teapots really are about “aiming for perfection”, you put it, faj. The goal is to take a good tea and make it even better. Matching the right tea to the right pot requires you to first be able to taste small nuances in a tea’s flavor, to fine tune and adjust leaf proportions and temperatures. This is all stuff that comes with experience. Your money would be better spent getting to know your tea, at least for a while. Not trying to be a killjoy or anything like that, I just think that if you have a finite amount of money, it would be wiser to spend it on good tea.
Thanks @swordofmytriumph

I have gotten to a point in my life where spending on a teapot will not mean buying less or lesser tea. It might actually have the opposite effect ;) . That being said, the idea is not to spend money for the sake of it.

It is certainly true that now would not be the time for me to try to fine-tune a teapot collection to complement my (still very much evolving) tastes and teas. Also true that I am not at the point where I would fully appreciate what the teapot does to the tea. Saying I should abstain from dipping my toe seems a bit ascetic.

For instance, I drink senchas and mountain oolongs on a regular basis. Following hints on this thread, I saw many positive comments about several experienced members mentioning kobiwako kyusus from Hojo being real winners for these teas, and having an easily observable impact on the tea. Should I refrain from considering a product like this? The full value of the (modest) investment might not materialize in the short run, but it seems like it should not have a detrimental effect on my journey either, even though I am not "worthy of that teapot" yet...
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Youzi
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:55 pm

faj wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:00 pm
Youzi wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:09 pm
Another clay I'd recommend is Jiangponi. It's a natural mixture of Hongni/Zini/Duanni. Based on the ratio of Hongni/Duanni its either Hong Jiangponi or Huang Jiangponi (red/yellow). Jiangponi is a newly discovered subtype of Zisha and the resources are plenty, so it's cheap, and not faked, however it's performance is really good. I'd illustrate it like this: Hongni <-- Hong Jiangponi --> Zini <-- Huang Jiangponi --> Duanni
Youzi, just to give me a reference, would you say these Jiangponi teapots are of the "Hong" or "Huang" variety?

https://www.mudandleaves.com/store/p418 ... 40ml_.html
https://www.mudandleaves.com/store/p574 ... 180ml.html

Many thanks,
It's Hong, but the Shipiao has more Duanni in it. You can see it from the close up pictures. (the yellow spots and their size).

For reference here's a pure, raw Hong Jiangponi ore, from my collection:
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Raw Hong Jiangponi Ore
Raw Hong Jiangponi Ore
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faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:04 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:29 pm
I’d like to just go on the record and thank the OP for the robust discussion. Too often we give our time and knowledge to a new member only to be ghosted, which has caused me to begin withholding knowledge since it will be ignored or not appreciated. I know I am not the only one.

So, thank you!
Thanks @Baisao.

Well, I must say I am a bit surprised, almost overwhelmed, at how much participation I am seeing, and I am the one that needs to be thanking you all. I know what time is worth. Thanks for bearing with my naiveté and inquisitiveness and helping me with my newbie questions.
faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:26 pm

Thanks @Youzi for the detailed response.
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If someone would find out, that there are problems with their Yixings, than it'd be a huge blow to their core business unlike it would be for YS. If their goal is to stay in business for a long time and allow them to have a good life and stable income, then it'd be totally counter productive to sell low quality pots and always risk them selves to go out of business. "It takes years to build up a good reputation and one minute to tear it down".
I am in business myself, so I know what you mean. But sometimes economic pressures or greed cause people to take decisions that are against their long term interest. This being said, it is hard for newcomers to evaluate if a seller is a "real business" or just a store front exploiting uninformed westerners like myself.
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If you don't mind me asking could you check out the article I wrote about the main kinds of Zisha ores?
Already loaded in my browser, I will be reading it shortly.
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
Currently the problem on the Yixing market is, that the average Chinese customer doesn't want a good "real" Yixing teapot. They just want a "Da Hong Pao" or "Zhuni" with exquisite design, which are as red as blood and without any imperfections. And of course it should be shiny too, because they don't have time for the patina to develop. So it should look expensive but don't be more than 400 yuan.
Are these customers buying such teapots thinking they are actually high-end and made of these rare clays, or are they simply making a choice based on priorities that do not involve tea drinking, buying these fully knowing they are not "real" like one could, for instance, buy fake wood furniture?
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If I wasn't clear I apologize for my rambling. :D
Very interesting and clear actually.
faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If you don't mind me asking could you check out the article I wrote about the main kinds of Zisha ores?
Just finished, I read both entries. Sums up many things I had read here and there, with additional details. I wish I had seen this first!
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
You can check this article together with the on on M&L site: http://www.yirenchupin.com/14785.html
That website does not seem to be loading. I am not getting an error, it just hangs while attempting to load.

Thanks @Youzi!
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Youzi
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:25 pm

faj wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:58 pm
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If you don't mind me asking could you check out the article I wrote about the main kinds of Zisha ores?
Just finished, I read both entries. Sums up many things I had read here and there, with additional details. I wish I had seen this first!
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
You can check this article together with the on on M&L site: http://www.yirenchupin.com/14785.html
That website does not seem to be loading. I am not getting an error, it just hangs while attempting to load.

Thanks Youzi!
Thanks I wanted them to be an overview for newcomers, so I tried not to get into too much details right off from the start, I already felt like it was kind of too long.
The website doesn't load for me neither now, however it did a couple hours ago, and I visit that site frequently so it should be good again some time later. :D
faj wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:26 pm
Youzi wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm
Currently the problem on the Yixing market is, that the average Chinese customer doesn't want a good "real" Yixing teapot. They just want a "Da Hong Pao" or "Zhuni" with exquisite design, which are as red as blood and without any imperfections. And of course it should be shiny too, because they don't have time for the patina to develop. So it should look expensive but don't be more than 400 yuan.
Are these customers buying such teapots thinking they are actually high-end and made of these rare clays, or are they simply making a choice based on priorities that do not involve tea drinking, buying these fully knowing they are not "real" like one could, for instance, buy fake wood furniture?
I think they are just misinformed and doesn't really care too much. The looks are much more important than the effect on tea. A cool and beautiful look and the "Yixing brand" is Chabuduo (good enough) for them, since most of their friends cannot tell the difference. Think of it like a Fake Rolex or Supreme T-shirt...
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:29 pm

faj wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:56 am
Baisao wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:40 pm
It will be hard to quantify this since it involves a sense for what is happening in an enclosed space but it seems to me like flat edges and angles create less refined (harsh or edgy) aromatics and shallow teapots don’t seem to gather the aromatics as well as more spherical teapots. This is my opinion after 15 years, more or less, of making tea in different shaped teapots.
As an engineer, my first reaction is to note that spherical shapes have a smaller surface to volume ratio, which would mean slower heat dissipation, and less exposure of tea to the surface effects of the clay. Angular shapes will also create temperature variations. Intuitively, those are factors that could, in theory, affect the result. But you also said smaller pots perform better, and they (compared to larger ones) will also have quicker heat dissipation and more surface exposed to tea per unit of volume. So heat retention might not be the main driver, as if it was I would expect you to recommend bigger teapots.

Flatter shapes would also have a higher surface of water exposed to air unless 100% full.

Obviously, smaller teapots allow an increased water to leaves ratio for a given amount (and cost) of leaves. In the world of headphones, it is said that preference sometimes come from slight differences in volume being mistaken for differences in quality : if one tends to use slightly more leaves per unit of water when using smaller pots, it might be perceived as the smaller pot infusing better tea. This is just an outsider's untested conjecture in front of a process with so many variables involved, I am not claiming that to be either true or plausible.
All of this is possible and I don’t think anyone has studied this scientifically. There are other aspects of tea that lack satisfactory explanations for which there is consensus among tea enthusiasts. Sometimes we describe these things using Eastern terms. Cha qi is one obvious example. The Western consensus is that cha qi is not a mystical force but a yet unexplained interaction of phytochemicals in the human body. Sometimes we accept the mystery and move on.
faj wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:56 am
Baisao wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:40 pm
Ultimately it comes down to “If it’s fake, it’s a really good one”. We evaluate from experience, of course, but we look at textures, inclusions/precipitates, firing, colors in various light sources, porosity, and affect on flavors/textures.
I understand it ends up being a judgement call, the hope being that one's own ability to detect fakes is higher that the scammer's ability and incentives to develop fakes good enough to beat your ability. In your case that might be a reasonable risk equation, in my own case it is another story.

As the price of vintage teaware increases, I would expect the ability of collectors to weed out fakes will grow slower than the scammer's ability to fake, as knowledge about what makes a pot "authentic" in a way that does not involve expensive testing is probably not growing much, while the increasing price of collectibles creates almost unbounded economic incentives (and therefore means) to develop better fakes. In other words, I would expect experts judging authenticity with the naked eye to be losing ground to scammers as time goes by, with an increasing flow of fake passing as real stuff among knowledgeable individuals.

I am surprised that there does not seem to be any third party doing tests on products and auditing supply chains. Given the high value of teapots, the value of certainty as to clay quality is high, and doing chemical and spectrometric tests cannot be that expensive. Credible third party certification would give a lot of pricing power to vendors of modern products, I would expect. But then again, it really is not a market I know about.
As mentioned since the above post, there are efforts to test Yixing clays. I don’t think this will get too far as none of these clays are pure. They are (historically) personally processed mixtures of clays from various locations and strata around the region. For example, when we talk about zhuni some people assume it is a pure clay and can only come from a couple of locations, but even lao zhuni had to be blended with hongni to be workable, and who knows where either clay came from when examining the finished teapot.

Your assumption that fakers are ahead of collector is correct. But it is worse than that. Pressure from fakers has caused collectors to only accept as authentic teapots of highly specific characteristics. This creates a climate where authentic teapots are considered fake, even if there is archeological evidence (shipwrecks, etc.) for the contentious characteristics. As you can imagine, this creates a kind of echo chamber where collectors are experts only on a slice of the historical production and everything else is suspect.

I have known experts who passed on fakes despite their good intentions. They no longer sell. So yes, it happens. My own teacher, despite being an expert at gongfu cha, frequently bought handmade teapots that had clearly been made in a mold. I literally couldn’t make my teacher see the seam lines because the dream was stronger than the reality!
faj wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:56 am
Baisao wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:40 pm
It’s worth noting that F1 teapots are a benchmark for many of us since they are so well documented.
If I were to assume that documentation would not be in English, would I be right?
Ah, well this is the caveat that makes F1’s much safer. The world’s expert on early F1 teapots has a pictorial book. It’s in Chinese but easily translated with an app as you go. He speaks English and has a Facebook site where he helps people verify their teapots. It’s doesn’t get much better than that.
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:36 pm

Bok wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:41 am
In that case I’d focus on the tea first! For that a simple thin walled gaiwan is best.
I agree. And to take it a step further: your choice of water will have a greater affect on your tea than good clay. I suggest learning how teas react to waters, temperatures, timing before wading into Yixing. You’ll have to familiarize yourself with teas to understand what it is you want to restrain or emphasize in any given tea. Expect this to take a couple of years.
faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:10 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:29 pm
All of this is possible and I don’t think anyone has studied this scientifically. There are other aspects of tea that lack satisfactory explanations for which there is consensus among tea enthusiasts. Sometimes we accept the mystery and move on.
Science is about slowly chipping away at the unknown, while recognizing there is much that you will never understand. Not scientifically explained does not mean it is not real, I agree. Throwing theories around is always good fun as long as you do not take yourself too seriously...
Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:29 pm
As mentioned since the above post, there are efforts to test Yixing clays. I don’t think this will get too far as none of these clays are pure.
When I mentioned testing, it was more from the perspective of determining safety rather than some form of proof of origin. At the end of the day, my expectation is that what one purchases must be safe and meet the claims made. Obviously, if I were contemplating purchasing a pot worth a fortune as a collector, then "authenticity" would take on a different meaning.
Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:29 pm
This creates a climate where authentic teapots are considered fake, even if there is archeological evidence (shipwrecks, etc.) for the contentious characteristics.
To reduce the risk of false positives at all cost, you increase the risk of false negatives. Presumption of innocents allows fewer innocent people in jail, at the cost of more guilty people on the streets. Trade-offs.
Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:29 pm
My own teacher, despite being an expert at gongfu cha, frequently bought handmade teapots that had clearly been made in a mold. I literally couldn’t make my teacher see the seam lines because the dream was stronger than the reality!
The ability of the human mind to perceive things as it believes them to be is very powerful, and that is one glaring example. Thanks for sharing!
faj
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:44 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:36 pm
I agree. And to take it a step further: your choice of water will have a greater affect on your tea than good clay. I suggest learning how teas react to waters, temperatures, timing before wading into Yixing. You’ll have to familiarize yourself with teas to understand what it is you want to restrain or emphasize in any given tea. Expect this to take a couple of years.
Point well taken about the water. I quickly stopped using tap water back at the beginning when I realized it was killing the tea, maybe due to chlorine, but I have not experimented much with various types of spring water. I know it can have a big impact from another eye-opening experience I had. This is something I should explore more, for sure.
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Baisao
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:45 pm

@faj, I don’t know how far you are from Montreal but there is a tea group there. Of course they sound like pillocks in the Vice article so I cannot say if it is the group or the author: secret names, a “Fight Club” environment, purposely trying to get tea drunk, etc.

“ This select group of collectors had gathered in North America's best tea shop for the free-for-all that K officially calls ‘After Hours.’ When he described it to me, he said, ‘Think Fight Club.’ Everybody brings his or her best stuff and, under the guise of camaraderie, hopes to be pummeled into enlightenment.”

My thinking is that if there’s a group of tea enthusiasts in Montreal there are likely other groups of tea enthusiasts in your province.
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