Puzzled wannabe Yixing buyer

[faj]

Thanks for chimiing in @Bok

You are asking for a fast track way to get to know Yixing, which is impossible.

Maybe my statement sounded a bit ambitious there. You are right to point out the first Yixing pot I get might not be one I will like enough to use forever. If you go back to my original question, I am not looking for a recommendation for a specific teapot as much as trying to identify vendors where I can have access to decent products with relative peace of mind so that I can start experimenting. And I would like to understand why I should trust them.

For a pot that is supposed to last longer, invest rather more money than less. So so quality pots that you find out not to like later are more difficult to resell and get rid off.

I understand there is no specific threshold, but what would consider "more" and "less", roughly speaking? Do you mean it purely in relative terms with regards to my budget, or do you have a rough idea of how much you would expect to pay for something you would deem good enough for keeping?

If you go for the vintage road, I do recommend to look for anything up to green label, 1980s. Afterwards, additives where used, if you’re worried about those.

When you say that additives were used after the 80s, do you mean in "Factory" pots too?

Ideally, I would get a 60-70s Hongi shuiping, can’t really go wrong with that. If I’m not mistaken Brent D has one for sale.

The idea of buying a teapot for hundreds of dollars on a forum is not really reassuring for a novice. Not that the alternatives feel especially reassuring either. This is my whole conundrum : what should trust be based on if it cannot be based on one's own ability to accurately detect scams...

[faj]

It will be hard to quantify this since it involves a sense for what is happening in an enclosed space but it seems to me like flat edges and angles create less refined (harsh or edgy) aromatics and shallow teapots don’t seem to gather the aromatics as well as more spherical teapots. This is my opinion after 15 years, more or less, of making tea in different shaped teapots.

As an engineer, my first reaction is to note that spherical shapes have a smaller surface to volume ratio, which would mean slower heat dissipation, and less exposure of tea to the surface effects of the clay. Angular shapes will also create temperature variations. Intuitively, those are factors that could, in theory, affect the result. But you also said smaller pots perform better, and they (compared to larger ones) will also have quicker heat dissipation and more surface exposed to tea per unit of volume. So heat retention might not be the main driver, as if it was I would expect you to recommend bigger teapots.

Flatter shapes would also have a higher surface of water exposed to air unless 100% full.

Obviously, smaller teapots allow an increased water to leaves ratio for a given amount (and cost) of leaves. In the world of headphones, it is said that preference sometimes come from slight differences in volume being mistaken for differences in quality : if one tends to use slightly more leaves per unit of water when using smaller pots, it might be perceived as the smaller pot infusing better tea. This is just an outsider's untested conjecture in front of a process with so many variables involved, I am not claiming that to be either true or plausible.

Ultimately it comes down to “If it’s fake, it’s a really good one”. We evaluate from experience, of course, but we look at textures, inclusions/precipitates, firing, colors in various light sources, porosity, and affect on flavors/textures.

I understand it ends up being a judgement call, the hope being that one's own ability to detect fakes is higher that the scammer's ability and incentives to develop fakes good enough to beat your ability. In your case that might be a reasonable risk equation, in my own case it is another story.

As the price of vintage teaware increases, I would expect the ability of collectors to weed out fakes will grow slower than the scammer's ability to fake, as knowledge about what makes a pot "authentic" in a way that does not involve expensive testing is probably not growing much, while the increasing price of collectibles creates almost unbounded economic incentives (and therefore means) to develop better fakes. In other words, I would expect experts judging authenticity with the naked eye to be losing ground to scammers as time goes by, with an increasing flow of fake passing as real stuff among knowledgeable individuals.

I am surprised that there does not seem to be any third party doing tests on products and auditing supply chains. Given the high value of teapots, the value of certainty as to clay quality is high, and doing chemical and spectrometric tests cannot be that expensive. Credible third party certification would give a lot of pricing power to vendors of modern products, I would expect. But then again, it really is not a market I know about.

It’s worth noting that F1 teapots are a benchmark for many of us since they are so well documented.

If I were to assume that documentation would not be in English, would I be right?

[swordofmytriumph]

You are asking for a fast track way to get to know Yixing, which is impossible.

Maybe my statement sounded a bit ambitious there. You are right to point out the first Yixing pot I get might not be one I will like enough to use forever. If you go back to my original question, I am not looking for a recommendation for a specific teapot as much as trying to identify vendors where I can have access to decent products with relative peace of mind so that I can start experimenting. And I would like to understand why I should trust them.

For a pot that is supposed to last longer, invest rather more money than less. So so quality pots that you find out not to like later are more difficult to resell and get rid off.

I understand there is no specific threshold, but what would consider "more" and "less", roughly speaking?

The idea of buying a teapot for hundreds of dollars on a forum is not really reassuring for a novice. Not that the alternatives feel especially reassuring either. This is my whole conundrum : what should trust be based on if it cannot be based on one's own ability to accurately detect scams...

Regarding reputable vendors, I asked many of the same questions last year that you are asking now. What I was told then was that these vendors are pretty good:
—Essence of Tea
—Emmets Teas
—HY Chen sells pots on his site, 2088Taiwan
I know I’m missing some, but I can’t remember what the others were. As for why you should trust a vendor, the only way to do so is that if multiple people involved this forum who are heavily into yixing and can tell when they are being scammed will buy from them, then it is likely to be safe. For instance, if a newbie told me a vendor was good I wouldn’t put much stock in it but if Bok or Baisao tells me a vendor is good I would seriously consider buying what they recommend.

For what you’re spending, do not spend less than $100 absolute rock bottom minimum for a modern pot. Add more $$$ for older pots. A lot more $$$.

About buying on a forum not being reassuring, I felt the same way when I joined this forum last year. Now I feel differently. Consider that when you buy from a vendor, you only know what they are telling you, and maybe a few reviews online that could be faked. There’s really no way to know for sure. But people on this forum devote serious time and money to exploring tea and teapots. They discuss their findings and the different ways each clay will affect tea. They have many years of experience in the world of yixing as their post history here and then on TeaChat will show. You know based on their history that they are knowledgeable regarding the identification of a pot, and that they are unlikely to sell you something they know is fake because this is a community where they are highly active. If you were going to scam someone, would you do it on a public forum you have spent years of your life on, where the person you sold it to could accuse you and post evidence? It would burn your reputation.
When you think of it in this light, I feel ten times more comfortable buying something on this forum than I would a vendor. That said, there’s a reason that newbies who come here and put their stuff up to sell don’t usually have good luck, because they haven’t invested enough time into this forum for the rest of us to know they are legit.

Lastly, if you are brand new to the world of unglazed teapots, might I suggest trying Japanese teapots for a year or so? It is much more accessible to beginners, there is much less chance of being ripped off. That’s the route I ended up going instead of going down the yixing rabbit hole to start and I couldn’t be more happy. I was able to get a feel for how different clays effect tea. Now that I’ve been at it a year, I have gone back to yixing and am ready to try again, this time with a bit more experience with clay under my belt. I just ordered one of @mudandleaves Daicaoqing pots.

Edit: also Mud and Leaves still has pots available, their shop is not empty.

[swordofmytriumph]

Another thing, when I was new to all this, I was very concerned with new pots vs old pots, genuine vs fake, etc. Now, my only criteria are:

1. Makes the tea better
2. Doesn’t have harmful/poisonous additives
3. Craftsmanship
4. At the end of the day, am I happy? If yes, then it has served its purpose.

That said, the general rule of thumb is that older pots tend to make the tea better and new pots don’t, but as @Baisao said there are exceptions.

[faj]

As for why you should trust a vendor, the only way to do so is that if multiple people involved this forum who are heavily into yixing and can tell when they are being scammed will buy from them, then it is likely to be safe.

This is the circular reasoning that makes it hard for a newcomer. You fear forums are an echo chamber where widely help opinions end up being a collective phenomenon not really based on facts, where trust is a self-reinforcing process. Now, this is a feature of human communities, not a fault of this or any forum, and me being so new obviously contributes to my uncertainty.

they are unlikely to sell you something they know is fake because this is a community where they are highly active. If you were going to scam someone, would you do it on a public forum you have spent years of your life on, where the person you sold it to could accuse you and post evidence? It would burn your reputation.

That is fair, but not foolproof. Entirely honest people can pass fakes around (especially very good fakes which, by definition, if they exist, are going to be convincing even to experienced buyers with good reputation). If I get a teapot from a very honest user, and due to my inexperience, my own belief that the pot is what is claimed it is rests entirely on my trust in that user, and the belief that no one broke the chain of trust. That is a high bar. If, then I resell that teapot, claiming I got it from that other user, I am making that chain of trust one deeper.

That said, there’s a reason that newbies who come here and put their stuff up to sell don’t usually have good luck, because they haven’t invested enough time into this forum for the rest of us to know they are legit.

That makes sense, and I come here as a wannabe buyer, not seller...

Lastly, if you are brand new to the world of unglazed teapots, might I suggest trying Japanese teapots for a year or so? It is much more accessible to beginners, there is much less chance of being ripped off. I just ordered one of mudandleaves Daicaoqing pots.

I actually got a Tokoname kyusu recently. I was not intending to build a small collection of those, but I see how that may be a way to get a feeling for clay on the cheaper/safer side of things. Are there useful parallels that can be made between clays used for Japanese teapots and Yixing ones?

Might I ask why Mud and Leaves is a vendor you trust?

[Bok]

@faj price is really not the best indication, at least for older pots, one can come by antiques for very little and it can get into the hundreds and thousands, there is luck and there is the market price.

For a modern made pot (of any provenance) that is a keeper for a long time? It depends what life time service is worth to you? But for 200 upwards I expect something good. Think of it that way, all this 50$ and less mediocre pots that many amass are just a waste of space and tend to be neglected. Buy less, but buy better. Which brings us back to your conundrum: experience to know the difference. Just watch and observe, hang out with local tea people and or shops if available. That is the quickest way, learn from the ones before you, in person.

Yes the additives concern the Factory pots. A guy in China has and is still doing all sorts of tests on teaware. 90s onwards was the threshold. Including green label is still fine.

As what concerns forum sales, I would join the previous opinions: much safer here than from a vendor. Any dubious items would be immediately called out in here. Another way for you would also be to specifically post items you thinking a out purchasing for other people’s opinions on them.

+1 for Japanese teaware. Easier to navigate, not necessarily cheaper, but you know what you’ll get. And to be honest the difference in taste was much more obvious for me with some Japanese clays than with Yixing. Yixing is amazing but the changes they make are often very subtle and in itself require some skill to notice and use to one’s own advantage. Try for example Hokujo, Kobiwako clay, or others you find mentioned here. Worth exploring and they are nice tools!

[Bok]

In regards to fakes: if you enter the old teapot game, that is something you have to live with.

The basic rule for antiques is: buy only what you know.

That means for you, until you know your antiques, don’t buy any

[faj]

Another thing, when I was new to all this, I was very concerned with new pots vs old pots, genuine vs fake, etc. Now, my only criteria are:
1. Makes the tea better
2. Doesn’t have harmful/poisonous additives
3. Craftsmanship
4. At the end of the day, am I happy? If yes, then it has served its purpose.

I think I am right there with you.

Old vs. new I only see as a choice you need to make that influences how trust will be built. If a given pot is safe and makes tea better, I do not care about its age. I am not of the conviction that one is better than the other on principle, or that the only "proper" way to make tea is with vintage pots. There is no social aspect to this choice for me, believe me when I say there is no prestige associated with teapots where I am from.

My worry about "fakes" is directly related to your items 1 and 2. The reason for that is that a product that is not what it claims to be has a higher chance of not doing what it is supposed to do well (1) and is also more likely to be harmful (2). But if you tell me the pot that makes the best tea in the world would be considered "fake" by some standard, or at least does not use any of the "magic clays" that are now extinct like dinosaurs (or not), but is otherwise safe, I wil not refuse buying it because it does not meet some standard of authenticity.

[faj]

faj price is really not the best indication, at least for older pots, one can come by antiques for very little and it can get into the hundreds and thousands, there is luck and there is the market price.

Where I live, there are no (real or fake, old or new) Yixing teapots selling in garage sales, and no stores selling (real or fake, old or new) Yixing teapots. I could by definition only buy an older pot online, and I would do that based on guidance, no my own ability. I would expect to pay market price for whatever I get. That being said, my intent is getting a decent teapot, not a vintage one. New or old is not my main focus. I am a tea drinker, not a collector or investor. I want to explore tea drinking, no teapots for the sake of it.

+1 for Japanese teaware. Easier to navigate, not necessarily cheaper, but you know what you’ll get. And to be honest the difference in taste was much more obvious for me with some Japanese clays than with Yixing. Yixing is amazing but the changes they make are often very subtle and in itself require some skill to notice and use to one’s own advantage. Try for example Hokujo, Kobiwako clay, or others you find mentioned here. Worth exploring and they are nice tools!

I thought Japanese clay was typically less porous and affected the taste to a lesser extent than Yixing. I will seek more information about the ones you suggest.

Thanks a lot @Bok!

[swordofmytriumph]

You fear forums are an echo chamber where widely help opinions end up being a collective phenomenon not really based on facts, where trust is a self-reinforcing process.

they are unlikely to sell you something they know is fake because this is a community where they are highly active. If you were going to scam someone, would you do it on a public forum you have spent years of your life on, where the person you sold it to could accuse you and post evidence? It would burn your reputation.

That is fair, but not foolproof. Entirely honest people can pass fakes around (especially very good fakes which, by definition, if they exist, are going to be convincing even to experienced buyers with good reputation). If I get a teapot from a very honest user, and due to my inexperience, my own belief that the pot is what is claimed it is rests entirely on my trust in that user, and the belief that no one broke the chain of trust. That is a high bar.

Lastly, if you are brand new to the world of unglazed teapots, might I suggest trying Japanese teapots for a year or so? It is much more accessible to beginners, there is much less chance of being ripped off. I just ordered one of mudandleaves Daicaoqing pots.

Are there useful parallels that can be made between clays used for Japanese teapots and Yixing ones?

Might I ask why Mud and Leaves is a vendor you trust?

Bottom line, there is not foolproof method, only what is likely and what is not.

Yes, honest people can pass fakes, but my point was that experienced people are unlikely to because they know what is fake and what is not, and there are a lot of experienced people here.

I don’t know enough about yixing pots to draw parallels, and I’ve only been at the Japanese pots for a year, so I am still in the somewhat newbie stage myself.

Regarding mud and leaves, firstly they do not sell the old stuff, and they don’t make any outrageous claims in their posts (they would have been called out if they had). Also, I and others on this forum have bought their products before (thought not the yixing) and have been happy with the quality. From reading their posts I can tell they care about the clay, and their post history shows them to be relatively knowledgeable in that respect, and that gives me confidence there’s nothing harmful in the pot. I haven’t heard from anyone here posting that they got ripped off or scammed by them and since they post here fairly often, you better believe that it would be a big deal. All of this together is enough to convince me to give it a try. If it doesn’t work out, well, them’s the brakes.
Bottom line, as long as it improves my tea, and doesn’t poison me, I will be happy. We’ll see what it does with my tea when I get it.

[swordofmytriumph]

That being said, my intent is getting a decent teapot, not a vintage one. New or old is not my main focus. I am a tea drinker, not a collector or investor. I want to explore tea drinking, no teapots for the sake of it.

Try for example Hokujo, Kobiwako clay, or others you find mentioned here. Worth exploring and they are nice tools!

I thought Japanese clay was typically less porous and affected the taste to a lesser extent than Yixing. I will seek more information about the ones you suggest.

+1 for the Kobiwako, it has achieved cult status on this forum. For my personally recommendation, the oxidation fired Mumyoi is also excellent, especially for young sheng. If I had to choose only one of my pots to keep it would be that pot, it has that much of a beneficial effect on the tea. You can get these at Hojo Tea’s website. Their website is odd, you have to email them to buy. Don’t let that stop you. I have three pots from Hojo and all are fabulous.

Edit: grammar

[Bok]

@faj you’re welcome, hope it helps you on your way.

One important question would be, what tea are you actually drinking? That could narrow down suggestions considerably.

[faj]

One important question would be, what tea are you actually drinking? That could narrow down suggestions considerably.

I purposefully did not discuss this in my initial question, for several reasons.

• I have not settled into any specific families of tea. I try various things, trying to understand my preferences. I am very, very far from having tried enough teas from different families to begin expressing my tastes. I have clearly not tried similar teas from enough vendors to even have an idea if what I am getting is decent.

• If clay teapots have a meaningful impact on the taste of tea, it might ultimately change my preferences. Maybe I will find out I like some types of teas more than first thought.

• I want to experiment. I feel I am not at the point where I want to narrow down, focus and aim for "perfection". While not ignoring what a teapot would be expected to be good with, I also want to experience what happens when trying to infuse tea in the "wrong" pot.

This being said, I have liked the Yancha, Taiwanese mountain and Tie Guan Yin teas I have tried. I tried a few Chinese red teas and pu'er too, some of which I liked. I regularly drink Chinese and Japanese green teas, which I guess are usually not the first thing you associate with Yixing teapots. I am not looking for a teapot that fits everything I drink.

[Bok]

In that case I’d focus on the tea first! For that a simple thin walled gaiwan is best.

[Youzi]

Thanks for the pointers. Mud and leaves, which I had stumbled upon, seem to have many items in their store when I checked a couple of minutes ago. Or do you mean they have fewer products than before?

Those are good examples of vendors that "look good" from an outsider's perspective. The products are expensive enough that it might not be junk clay and craftsmanship (no disrespect intended here, just saying I would not be fooled by a 10$ pot). Mud and leaves, which I checked out before, has a quite extensive website, with much information. How reliable is hard for me to tell due to inexperience. How can I know the products are good, and the nice website is not just a nice coat of paint over a shady business?

I would like to understand what makes you comfortable to recommending their products as safe and worthy of the claims made. Once again no disrespect meant here, just trying to learn.

I also don't like to trust others, so instead I prefer to look at their financial and economical interests. M&L's main marketing and their core business is high quality Ruyao, Jingdezhen Porcelain and Yixing teapots, as opposed to most other western vendors who's main focus is tea, like YS, King Tea Mall, etc.

If someone would find out, that there are problems with their Yixings, than it'd be a huge blow to their core business unlike it would be for YS. If their goal is to stay in business for a long time and allow them to have a good life and stable income, then it'd be totally counter productive to sell low quality pots and always risk them selves to go out of business. "It takes years to build up a good reputation and one minute to tear it down".

On another hand, I do quite a lot of research about Yixing clay processing and Yixing clays in specific, and reading through their blog I haven't found anything that would go against what I heard from other potters and found during my research. There's no point in educating your customers about how to spot low quality pots and tell the difference between various clays. It just increases the chance of your "scam" business to fall apart.

If you don't mind me asking could you check out the article I wrote about the main kinds of Zisha ores? I wrote it for the reason to help newcomers get a quick overall knowledge of clays on which they can build on. Here's the topic with the ongoing discussion: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1198

Your statement that Jiangponi is cheap enough to not be worth faking is something I find interesting. I do not know if this is a statement that would be widely recognized as fact (seems plausible prima facie), but it has the merit of relying on disincentives to faking, not chains of trust. In other words, if this is true, then there is a factual basis, even for an uninformed person, to think that a product using that clay is less likely to be unsafe or with chemical additions.

Maybe, as Shine Magical said, it is hard for a newbie without help to purchase something decent. I could be sold something worthless or dangerous, and unless it smells funny or looks obviously very low quality, there is no way I would know. It is easy to think that good fakes probably fool knowledgeable people who would probably think of themselves as (almost) immune to scams.

The reason it's cheap is because they discovered it during the 90's and there is still ongoing large-scale mining. There are two mines One near Huang Long Shan and One near Qing Long Shan. QLS produces Huang (Yellow) Jiangponi and the HLS one produces Hong(Red) Jiangponi. You can check this article together with the on on M&L site: http://www.yirenchupin.com/14785.html (use google translate, chrome, it's also a good site in general with lots of great information)

Also, unless you go really low on price there are no chemical or harmful teapots made in Yixing. (price is price in china, most western vendors have at least a 100% markup on new pots). I'd say the threshold is around 300-400 rmb. Those pots are not pure or too high quality clay either, but not harmful. They are just a waste of money because they won't give you the effect of what a real Yixing should give. Usually the pots harmful for your health is the slipcase ones and maybe the machine made "half-hand" pots.

Currently the problem on the Yixing market is, that the average Chinese customer doesn't want a good "real" Yixing teapot. They just want a "Da Hong Pao" or "Zhuni" with exquisite design, which are as red as blood and without any imperfections. And of course it should be shiny too, because they don't have time for the patina to develop. So it should look expensive but don't be more than 400 yuan.

In order to serve the majority of these customers most studios use Waishan Ni (外山泥) clay from other part of china, clear it with acid, to remove the black spots, add iron oxide to make it more red, decrease the porosity to 0 to have high pitch tone when they low fire it in order to have good yield and bam, you have your average Yixing, which isn't harmful for your health and perfectly good for making tea, but this teapot has little to none to do with what a real Yixing teapot should be like.

If I wasn't clear I apologize for my rambling.