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LeoFox
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:58 am

This is an interesting and relevant essay on "fakes" or "copies" in far eastern asian culture:

https://aeon.co/essays/why-in-china-and ... n-original
The Chinese have two different concepts of a copy. Fangzhipin (仿製品) are imitations where the difference from the original is obvious. These are small models or copies that can be purchased in a museum shop, for example. The second concept for a copy is fuzhipin (複製品). They are exact reproductions of the original, which, for the Chinese, are of equal value to the original. It has absolutely no negative connotations. The discrepancy with regard to the understanding of what a copy is has often led to misunderstandings and arguments between China and Western museums. The Chinese often send copies abroad instead of originals, in the firm belief that they are not essentially different from the originals. The rejection that then comes from the Western museums is perceived by the Chinese as an insult.

An anecdote from the essay:
The Ise Grand Shrine, the supreme Shinto sanctuary located on Honshu island, is 1,300 years old for the millions of Japanese people who go there on pilgrimage every year. But in reality this temple complex is completely rebuilt from scratch every 20 years.

This religious practice is so alien to Western art historians that, after heated debates, UNESCO removed this Shinto temple from the list of World Heritage sites. For the experts at UNESCO, the shrine is 20 years old at most. In this case, which is the original and which the copy?


Another interesting passage:
In the field of art as well, the idea of an unassailable original developed historically in the Western world. Back in the 17th century, excavated artworks from antiquity were treated quite differently from today. They were not restored in a way that was faithful to the original. Instead, there was massive intervention in these works, changing their appearance. For example, Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1598-1680) arbitrarily added a sword-hilt to Ares Ludovisi, the ancient statue of the god Mars, which was itself a Roman copy of a Greek original. During Bernini’s lifetime, the Colosseum itself was used as a marble quarry. Its walls were simply dismantled and used.

The preservation of historical monuments in the modern sense of the term begins with the museumisation of the past, whereby cult value increasingly gives way to exhibition value. Interestingly, this goes hand in hand with the rise of tourism

One more:

Aprior, primordial positing is alien to Far Eastern culture. It is probably this intellectual position that explains why Asians have far fewer scruples about cloning than Europeans. The South Korean cloning researcher Hwang Woo-suk, who attracted worldwide attention with his cloning experiments in 2004, is a Buddhist. He found a great deal of support and followers among Buddhists, while Christians called for a ban on human cloning. Though since revealed to be falsified, at the time Hwang legitimised his cloning experiments with his religious affiliation: ‘I am Buddhist, and I have no philosophical problem with cloning. And as you know, the basis of Buddhism is that life is recycled through reincarnation. In some ways, I think, therapeutic cloning restarts the circle of life.’
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Balthazar
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:09 am

@wave_code: I don't think there's a cut-and-dried and bulletproof definition we can all agree on here, but for me the intention is key. So if a businessman commissioned the production of pots in the late 80s and told the potters that he wanted them to look like famous pots X and Y from time period Z, with a Meng Chen seal, I wouldn't consider those pots "fake" unless the seller pretended these were really the originals and not replicas/homages. And even if they were later sold by the businessman as something else, you could even say that the pots weren't "fakes" when they were produced but became that when they were later put on the market.

Those "Shanghai museum" pots that were mentioned earlier, whose base reads "Copy of Shanghai Museum" are good examples. They're very honest replicas and I wouldn't call them "fakes".

What I thought @Mark-S meant by "genuine" (and I agree on) is that it's hard to determine whether or not those 訂製壺 which are often specified by the seller as being from the 80s are really from that period, or later ones made to look like them. I don't think there are any potters paying homage to 80s "custom order" pots, so here the more likely intention is of the more scammy kind.

I am aware that "intention" as a criterion is problematic since it's impossible to prove though. Just some thoughts off the cuff.

(I get a déjà vu feeling from this discussion btw, but it's probably a healthy topic to think about every once in a while, since these terms are thrown around quite a bit.)
Mark-S
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:19 am

LeoFox wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:58 am
This is an interesting and relevant essay on "fakes" or "copies" in chinese culture:

https://aeon.co/essays/why-in-china-and ... n-original
They are exact reproductions of the original, which, for the Chinese, are of equal value to the original.
I doubt that. :?

@Balthazar
What I thought @Mark-S meant by "genuine" (and I agree on) is that it's hard to determine whether or not those 訂製壺 which are often specified by the seller as being from the 80s are really from that period, or later ones made to look like them.
Yup ;) What I often read from these sellers are statements like "I got this one friend who bought 1000 of these pots in the 80's." It's the same with the "old" clay from F1 that's used for modern pots. Maybe these statements are true, but I am very skeptical.
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Balthazar
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:34 am

Mark-S wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:19 am
Yup ;) What I often read from these sellers are statements like "I got this one friend who bought 1000 of these pots in the 80's." It's the same with the "old" clay from F1 that's used for modern pots. Maybe these statements are true, but I am very skeptical.
Yeah, that's the case with most of what I see too. There's one new seller in one of those groups that has been posting dozens of pots over the last month or so. All specified as being "早期訂製壺" from the 80s, although no other details are clear because "是家中長輩留下的壺,皆已超過20年". In was in this connection that one of the admins posted a thinly veiled warning about these pots (that I annoyingly cannot find).
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steanze
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:48 am
Just curious, I suppose... How common are these kinds of pots?

Is there anything particularly special to them that anyone can teach me about?

I assume that it's a late 80s or so F1.

Andrew
Image
This isn't F1, it's a post 1990s replica... the clay doesn't look bad though.
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steanze
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 pm

Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:54 am

Not sure if the replicas before were made with deceit in mind or merely to replicate the ideals of times past. No idea if there was a market for antiques in antique times??? Maybe.
Yes there was! During ROC, craftsmen and even famous masters made replicas of teapots by masters of the past like Shi Dabin and Chen Mingyuan :)
Andrew S
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:33 pm

steanze wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 pm
This isn't F1, it's a post 1990s replica... the clay doesn't look bad though.
Thank you, that's good to know.

I wonder who would have bothered to make a replica of something like this, when they could have made something more valuable.

Andrew
Teachronicles
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:04 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:08 am
Not the best photo.

Just curious about that kind of inscription, which I understand to be a 'test' of some sort.

Andrew
Image
Looks like a nice shape for shipao, nice curves, i find many shipao to be pretty boring.
DailyTX
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:08 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:33 pm
steanze wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 pm
This isn't F1, it's a post 1990s replica... the clay doesn't look bad though.
Thank you, that's good to know.

I wonder who would have bothered to make a replica of something like this, when they could have made something more valuable.

Andrew
I guess…no ranking potters and/or merchants wanted to add a famous name such as student of so and so, or disciple of this person to increase the value of the pot. Some are stamped, others are hand inscriptions. Does your pot have a second stamp with the potter’s name?
Andrew S
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:21 pm

Nothing else on the pot, including inside or under the lid. Perhaps it was just an homage of some kind, or someone felt bored.

It is a cute little pot though. And now that I think about it, I don't recall seeing any similar pots from F1. Not yet, anyway.

Andrew
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Bok
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Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:18 pm

steanze wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 pm
Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:54 am

Not sure if the replicas before were made with deceit in mind or merely to replicate the ideals of times past. No idea if there was a market for antiques in antique times??? Maybe.
Yes there was! During ROC, craftsmen and even famous masters made replicas of teapots by masters of the past like Shi Dabin and Chen Mingyuan :)
I know that, but my question was if it was to fake and sell as the original, or rather to imitate a master of the past as a point of reference and ideal to aim for. Not sure if there are any sources on that.
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steanze
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Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:54 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:18 pm
steanze wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 pm
Bok wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:54 am

Not sure if the replicas before were made with deceit in mind or merely to replicate the ideals of times past. No idea if there was a market for antiques in antique times??? Maybe.
Yes there was! During ROC, craftsmen and even famous masters made replicas of teapots by masters of the past like Shi Dabin and Chen Mingyuan :)
I know that, but my question was if it was to fake and sell as the original, or rather to imitate a master of the past as a point of reference and ideal to aim for. Not sure if there are any sources on that.
I was answering your question about whether there was a market for antiques in antique times. There are several resources on this, for example ancient stone and bronze artifacts were prized during the Song dynasty (Sena, Yunchiahn C. Bronze and Stone: The Cult of Antiquity in Song Dynasty China. University of Washington Press, 2019.), and there definitely was appreciation for ancient artifacts during the Qianlong period - some argue that these antiquarian traditions influenced modern Chinese archaeology (Visconti, Chiara. "The Influence of Song and Qing Antiquarianism on Modern Chinese Archaeology." Ming Qing Yanjiu 19.01 (2015): 59-86.). During the ROC, my understanding is that there was also interest in ancient culture, both because of ongoing debates about the challenges posed by the fall of the empire and the directions for the future of the country, and because of stimulating archeological work like the excavations at the Anyang site in 1928 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_archaeology). In fact, the oracle bones inspired the carvings on teapots at the time, like these:
ROC_thx_1.jpg
ROC_thx_1.jpg (116.91 KiB) Viewed 3270 times
P1110824.JPG
P1110824.JPG (69.7 KiB) Viewed 3270 times

Antiquarian interest during ROC was not restricted to oracle bones only, for example, there are teapots using other ancient scripts such as Han square script, and with shapes that reference ancient bronzes:
liansheng_3_small.JPG
liansheng_3_small.JPG (442.3 KiB) Viewed 3270 times

The other side has a couplet attributed to a calligrapher from the 17th century (Zheng Yan, 1622-1693):
liansheng_2_small.JPG
liansheng_2_small.JPG (319.04 KiB) Viewed 3270 times
This is just to say that the interest for past culture was not restricted to ancient history, but there were references also to works of contemporaries of Chen Mingyuan for example.

To my knowledge, the imitations of ancient masters were sold as originals at the time, but maybe someone who has more in-depth knowledge about the history of the period can chime in.
Mark-S
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Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:19 pm

That's really interesting, @steanze, thank you :)

---

Could anybody translate this for me please? I don't know if I understand this correctly. It's the answer to the question why there's sometimes a color difference between lid and body.
早期商品壺就是壺蓋密才有問題?二支土胎不同蓋跟壺身交換就是這樣。
Does this mean that they replaced the lid if it wasn't tight enough?
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Bok
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Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:51 pm

Mark-S wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:19 pm
That's really interesting, steanze, thank you :)

---

Could anybody translate this for me please? I don't know if I understand this correctly. It's the answer to the question why there's sometimes a color difference between lid and body.
早期商品壺就是壺蓋密才有問題?二支土胎不同蓋跟壺身交換就是這樣。
Does this mean that they replaced the lid if it wasn't tight enough?
This sounds more like an excuse of a vendor… they couldn’t care less about the lid fit back then. I still don’t haha.

Someone broke the original lid, the owner or later owner replace it with something else that broke, end of story.
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OCTO
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Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:38 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:51 pm
Mark-S wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:19 pm
That's really interesting, steanze, thank you :)

---

Could anybody translate this for me please? I don't know if I understand this correctly. It's the answer to the question why there's sometimes a color difference between lid and body.
早期商品壺就是壺蓋密才有問題?二支土胎不同蓋跟壺身交換就是這樣。
Does this mean that they replaced the lid if it wasn't tight enough?
This sounds more like an excuse of a vendor… they couldn’t care less about the lid fit back then. I still don’t haha.

Someone broke the original lid, the owner or later owner replace it with something else that broke, end of story.
It's a common practice especially when dealing with vintage pots. These pots easily come with a huge discount from it's actual market value. A mismatched lid from similar pot shapes is often seen due to the lack of "perfectly matched" pots in the market. Hence explaining why some pots cost 2X or 3X from those you find in online e-commerce sites. Sometimes these pots may be branded a "fake" due to it's mismatched nature. A lid mismatch is big no no for collectors and these pots will sadly find it's way to the Western market where there is little to no side by side comparison available for the buyer to benchmark.

Cheers!
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