Oolong Vendor Topic

teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Wed May 12, 2021 2:19 pm

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:04 pm
For a bit of humor: How can anyone have drunk a pre-ordered tea?
A bit of the infamous swiss humorlessness: That’s why I didn’t ask whether someone ordered those two specific Oolongs, but rather was curious in general about customer experience with their Taiwanese Oolongs. And if they sell those teas regularly, they might have sold that specific type last year as well (2020 harvest of course)...Just saying :geek:
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:04 pm
My limit became & remains US$1 per gram.
Mine too. But I’m not particularly strict in enforcing that rule.
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:04 pm
...you can buy that last packet but only if you agree that is an old American ever can make it your way, you have a couch or bed for him for a few nights.
Hahaha very good. Lets see. It will depend on how much I like those fancy-schmancy high mountain Oolongs from mudandleaves’ exclusive Taiwanese tea source. :lol:
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Wed May 12, 2021 2:34 pm

LeoFox wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 pm
...I dont ever intend to purchase tea from them again. They seem to have partnered with some tea company in taiwan, though, having asked some people from taiwan, no one seems to have heard of this company
:shock: I might reconsider now.
LeoFox wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 pm
Want to emphasize that I do like their porcelain, though they do seem to be a bit expensive for what they are.
I haven’t found a reasonably priced western orientated tea merchant yet. Teaware, at least some type, can be ordered on Aliexpress. Jianshui pots for instance can be had for about $50-60 (mudandleaves charge about $75). And I even found and ordered a glass gaiwan, which is listed on an european tea merchants webshop for €36 ($44) and is sold on Aliexpress for $12. Exacly the same gaiwan... :o

https://easternleaves.com/collections/g ... ass-gaiwan

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... hweb201603_
Last edited by teabug on Wed May 12, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Victoria
Admin
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Contact:

Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 pm

teabug wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 am
Has someone purchased Taiwanese Oolongs from mudandleaves?
I haven’t ordered from them but I can recommend in Germany Die Kunst Des Tees. Kwon Ying von Beuningen has some fine oolong and sources directly.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Wed May 12, 2021 3:47 pm

Victoria wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 pm
teabug wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 am
Has someone purchased Taiwanese Oolongs from mudandleaves?
I haven’t ordered from them but I can recommend in Germany Die Kunst Des Tees. Kwon Ying von Beuningen has some fine oolong and sources directly.
Ah. Thanks. That looks good. I will give her a try.
User avatar
Balthazar
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Thu May 13, 2021 5:45 am

teabug wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:34 pm
I haven’t found a reasonably priced western orientated tea merchant yet. Teaware, at least some type, can be ordered on Aliexpress. Jianshui pots for instance can be had for about $50-60 (mudandleaves charge about $75).
You're going to be hard-pressed to find a vendor operating out of North America or Europe that can offer item X originating from China for the same price as a vendor operating out of China. So if that's the bar for "reasonably priced" then it's a hard one to pass.

There are some extreme examples out there of course (and generally speaking the % markup will be greater the cheaper the item, e.g. the glass gaiwan example).
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Thu May 13, 2021 6:27 am

@Balthazar second that.

You’d also hard pressed to find a car salesman in Asia selling you a Benz for the same price as it would cost in the EU… basic economics isn’t it.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Thu May 13, 2021 8:15 am

Balthazar wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:45 am
You're going to be hard-pressed to find a vendor operating out of North America or Europe that can offer item X originating from China for the same price as a vendor operating out of China. So if that's the bar for "reasonably priced" then it's a hard one to
I’m not an expert on the tea market in general, but a lot of the vendors, like mudandleaves or bitterleafteas, operate from inside China. Just like the Aliexpress vendors. So the Aliexpress crowd and the likes of mudandleaves, bitterleafteas and others do start from the same basis. And for the vendors that operate from Europe or US/Canada, they buy the goods produced in China and only sell them. They do not produce the actual goods in Europe and have to bear higher production costs. Therefore I dare question whether a Gaiwan that a vendor on Aliexpress sells for $12 has to be marked up by nearly 300% when sold from Europe. If that was OK, then the notorious Mei Leaf run a bargain basement shop...
Last edited by teabug on Thu May 13, 2021 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 am

Bok wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:27 am
You’d also hard pressed to find a car salesman in Asia selling you a Benz for the same price as it would cost in the EU… basic economics isn’t it.
That argument doesn’t hold much water.
Firstly, Benz runs production lines for its vehicles all over the world. So production cost in China (I have to check whether they have big facilities there, but my best guess is that they do) matches the buying power of the average Fritz (or Chin for that matter) on the street.
Secondly, if all Benz cars were to be manufactured exclusively in Germany, then shipped to China to a licenced car showroom, the price for the consumer might be different (depending on tax and import duty), but not by a factor of three to four. And in particular if the customer were to order the car directly from a german car showroom, then has it shipped to China on his expense and had to pay duty on it upon arrival. Surely, the price difference would not be factor three or four in favour of the latter (buying directly from a car salesman in Germany)...
Lets face it. The tea business is murky and full of dodgy figures whose sole business modell is to take advantage of the non expert westerner tea afficionado.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am

teabug wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:15 am
I’m not an expert on the tea market in general, but a lot of the vendors, like mudandleaves or bitterleafteas, operate from inside China. Just like the Aliexpress vendors. And for the ones that operate from Europe or US/Canada, they buy the goods produced in China and only sell them. I doubt that a Gaiwan that a vendor on Aliexpress sells for $12 has to be marked up by nearly 300% when sold from Europe. If that was OK, then Mei Leaf runs a bargain basement shop...
As far as I know, Mud and Leaves is based in Canada, with some sort of desk in Guangzhou.

Import duties, taxes, anti-dumping tariffs etc, shipping and handling, all do add up to quite a bit, especially in Europe... From what I see, 300% seems to be rather normal.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Thu May 13, 2021 8:39 am

teabug wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 am
That argument doesn’t hold much water.
I can tell you that a run-off the mill fake Parmesan in Taiwan can cost at least three times what the equivalent would cost in a European supermarket... pay more and still get a not very good product. Sound familiar?

I remember trying Taiwanese teas at Mariages-Frères for multiples of what they cost in Taiwan and still be very average if not outright crap teas.
User avatar
LeoFox
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:01 pm
Location: Washington DC

Thu May 13, 2021 8:44 am

teabug wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 am
Bok wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:27 am
You’d also hard pressed to find a car salesman in Asia selling you a Benz for the same price as it would cost in the EU… basic economics isn’t it.
That argument doesn’t hold much water.
Firstly, Benz runs production lines for its vehicles all over the world. So production cost in China (I have to check whether they have big facilities there, but my best guess is that they do) matches the buying power of the average Fritz (or Chin for that matter) on the street.
Secondly, if all Benz cars were to be manufactured exclusively in Germany, then shipped to China to a licenced car showroom, the price for the consumer might be different (depending on tax and import duty), but not by a factor of three to four. And in particular if the customer were to order the car directly from a german car showroom, then has it shipped to China on his expense and had to pay duty on it upon arrival. Surely, the price difference would not be factor three or four in favour of the latter (buying directly from a car salesman in Germany)...
Lets face it. The tea business is murky and full of dodgy figures whose sole business modell is to take advantage of the non expert westerner tea afficionado.
You would be so surprised at the cost of imported cars in china. Their import taxes and restrictions are devastating. Additionally the locally manufactured cars (and other goods) from non chinese brands have such lower quality that it is laughable- even if the main office sanctions that the actual brand name can be used. And then there are the counterfeits...
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Thu May 13, 2021 9:07 am

Bok wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am
As far as I know, Mud and Leaves is based in Canada, with some sort of desk in Guangzhou.
From their website:
„MudandLeaves is a ceramics and tea export company based in Ottawa Canada and Guangzhou China“. Call my a cynic, but I somewhat doubt that they have structured their business with the goal of paying the highes tax rates possible...
Bok wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am
Import duties, taxes, anti-dumping tariffs etc, shipping and handling, all do add up to quite a bit, especially in Europe... From what I see, 300% seems to be rather normal.
Exactly. If I order from Aliexpress, I have to pay all those charges and fees by myself on a minute order size. Whereas when a vendor puts in a order, naturally he gets better wholesale prices per item and better shipping rates for a big order. Granted, if he has to run his webshop from Europe/North America, he has to earn higher margins to keep up with the higher cost of living. All I’m bitching about is those greedy pricks that overcharge shamelessly by factors of magnitude of 3 or more. If ordering one single item on Aliexpress cost me $15 including shipping and I can order the very same item from a European merchant for $44 plus shipping, I am not amused.
User avatar
Balthazar
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Thu May 13, 2021 9:19 am

teabug wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:15 am
And for the vendors that operate from Europe or US/Canada, they buy the goods produced in China and only sell them. They do not produce the actual goods in Europe and have to bear higher production costs.
"Cost" is based on a number of components, the actual tea leaves or wares (the end product for sale) is only one of many factors a teashop/vendor has to take into account. Vendors operating from Europe must pay a salary commensurate with the cost of living here. If they have a storefront too, then rent etc. enters the equation. Some Western vendors operating out of Asia probably also factor in "expenses at home" (e.g. a house left behind in country X) that they have at the present or in the future (not like it's easy to get a permanent residency in China!).

That's the cost side of thing. Of course price is not the same as cost, and in some cases there are extreme markups at play too. Goes both ways as @Bok pointed out. A bottle of Norwegian fish oil is generally 3x the price in China compared to here and import duties are only a small part of the reason. That's why when I go to China, fish oil usually takes up 50% of my allowed baggage weight :mrgreen: (And when I fly back, tea takes up the same amount)

This is kind of a pointless argument, though. Buying as close to the source as possible is almost always going to be the cheapest option. To put it cynically, you are subsidizing higher living expenses and "other kinds of cost" when you buy from most Western vendors. The additional price may or may not be worth it to you, depending on how much you value the vendor's sourcing or having a decent tea store available locally.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Thu May 13, 2021 9:25 am

Bok wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:39 am
I can tell you that a run-off the mill fake Parmesan in Taiwan can cost at least three times what the equivalent would cost in a European supermarket...
Exactly my point. If you as a single consumer can import goods from the country of origin for a fraction of the price that the very same product is sold in your country by a professional merchant, then surely something is rotten in the state of Denmark. If a taiwanese person were to order that cheese directly from an italian webshop and had it shipped to Taiwan, the end price would surely be less than that of the mentioned fake Parmesan.
That’s why I now have started to browse tea merchants webshops for items I can quite easyily compare on sites like Aliexpress or other vendors webshops.
As an example:
the offering from the not so inexpensive essence of tea (they recently hiked the price up from an already overpriced $135 to the newly stated $150) :
https://essenceoftea.com/collections/te ... -tray-drum
(disclosure: I am one of those western idiots who buy items like that for $135)

and a webshop I will not even think of purchasing anything ever whatsoever:
https://purplecloudteahouse.com/collect ... han-chapan
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Thu May 13, 2021 9:53 am

Balthazar wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:19 am
Buying as close to the source as possible is almost always going to be the cheapest option.
To put it cynically, you are subsidizing higher living expenses and "other kinds of cost" when you buy from most Western vendors.
Buying close to the source is of course cheaper than buying 1,000 miles away. But that was never my gripe. I question the order of magnitude one has to accept. As stated, if I can beat the professionals who bulk order for down negotiated wholesale prices with my tiny single item order by a factor of three or even four, then I take issue with that merchant. Mind you, I buy from local merchants who are clearly western client oriented and aim to maximise their profits accordingly and not from local charity organisations.
I can stomach a factor of up to 1.5-2 when buying from a local merchant in Europe with a brick and mortar shop compared to me ordering from a local merchant ond covering all fees and shipping costs. But that is a personal decision and preference... ;)
Post Reply