Mei leaf

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Jeanbb
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:13 am

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:10 am

Balthazar wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:11 pm
Another reason is that it's really hard to believe that a tea importer that has to pay rent for a teahouse in London is going to offer similar quality for the money than what I can get from vendors (or individual collectors) operating out of Asia. This of course is not unique for Mei Leaf. The French chain Palais des Thés maintains stores around Europe, including in Oslo where I live. There's no way they can offer anything even close to "good value". So if I were to buy something from there today, it would be to support their existence more than hoping to find a gem.

I don't think anyone is suggesting their teas are too cheap. You'll find plenty of good feedback on vendors at the same or a significantly cheaper price point, YS being an obvious example. I also don't think the elitism charge is warranted. If you look around Reddit and Steepster threads there are plenty of people critical of Mei Leaf, their marketing, and their price/quality ratio.

Also, I think it's kind of ironic that you're sarcastically writing "new village Bing Dao" and Lao Ban Zhang, seeing how out of 13 puers currently on Mei Leaf's raw puer page, all besides two have "gushu" claims attached to them. One of them is supposedly even "sourced from crazy old tea trees in the hallowed forests of Bing Dao". That one "makes your mouth fizz" and may "cause excitability, giggliness and a floaty and shaking feeling in the legs with an almost narcotic dreaminess". Too bad it's sold out, I could use something like that in these COVID days...
I didn't necessarily mean in the sense that people see them as too cheap, but rather was just expressing as someone who has bought reasonably large amounts from a variety of vendors in terms of general range of quality I think some of the reactions here are clearly emotional or hostile purely on the basis of MLs image, Youtube presence and audience. Yes there was clearly sarcasm in my questioning but there's sincerity behind it of asking where exactly are some of the people here buying their teas, and what are they buying that would make these reactions appear rational. Because realistically I think there's not a chance in hell that if they were presented ML teas against those of W2T, Crimson Lotus, YS, Wuyi origin or Teavivre in a blind test they'd have noticeably more negative reactions to ML over any of the other vendors. I'm sure there are certain examples of ML teas they'd be very pleased with as well, just as long as the blindfold stayed on. Reddit regularly has people drinking and praising Harney and Sons with no haters in the comments for example but similarly dunking on Mei Leaf, strange forms of elitism in the tea world definitely exist.

In terms of value I largely agree, they did have a number of teas that I would purchase again but their packaging quite frankly sucks compared to elsewhere, purchasing from a generalised London tea vendor adds unnecessary costs and in terms of vendors I've used before they are easily the most expensive. Specifically in terms of raw puerh I thought the pricing seemed very fair and the quality was surprisingly high, although yes I am also sceptical of the use of "gushu", some of the tree age estimates they give are still unrealistic and some seemed too cheap from respective areas to be genuine or at least spring harvest teas. At the end of the day though my main concern is taste, feel, finish, distinctiveness, infusibility etc and ultimately how it compares to offerings from other vendors. Even for someone with reasonable experience I think they'd enjoy sampling a variety of their favourite tea types from ML, whether or not it makes sense to buy from them in terms of location and on cost in general.

And yes, their descriptions can be utterly ridiculous. Although I do think that a lingering feeling of mouth "fizz" in some raw puerh is legitimate especially after many steepings and that noticeable body or mind sensations can arise from specific teas under the right circumstances. But a less cringey or absurd description would be nice, I'd agree.

Good to see there are some arthouse film fans here btw.

Baisao wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:10 pm
Jeanbb, you should re-read what I wrote. My comment was is not about Mei Leaf but about “...the harm in drinking mediocre or bad teas.”

Yes, a friend of mine died of stomach cancer at too young an age and it did prompt me to consider if it was from tasting teas over decades that were improperly produced.

I have had negative experiences with mediocre or bad teas. Frequently, the body load of these teas just feels awful and can persist for days.

If someone claims there is no harm in drinking mediocre or bad tea, I’ll tell them otherwise. They can be hazardous to your health or they can simply make you feel sick.

There is nothing ridiculous in this.
I read it multiple times and majored English for one of my degrees, I indeed stand by what I wrote and don't know why you bother to obfuscate what you clearly implied, what anyone with a grasp of basic reading comprehension can see, and presently know you implied but deny regardless. You didn't explicitly claim their teas could do this but on a thread about ML where the majority of others were dunking on ML in a very casual, factually non-descript manner you implied they fit the description of bad tea. Then raised the question of whether a friend had got cancer from bad tea, subsequent to very clearly implying ML is bad tea. You also strongly suggested that their teas may have been produced with poor pesticide practises, again of which you have no direct proof. To top it off, you emphasise that the tea will make you "feel bad".

I'll call it how I see it, I think the post was melodramatic, overly emotional, relied on random anecdotes, fearmongering and claims that could not be factually verified as accurate. Worse, you said this without ever having tried their tea (or at least this is strongly implied) On a tea forum under an alias it is what it is, but I think the core of the comment is bordering on libellous in a moral sense. I find MLs marketing a little annoying, what your comment is however is a masterclass in competitive marketing that is as hollow factually as it comes.
aet wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:47 pm
Jeanbb

interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm just puzzled with one thing you have mentioned. If you would be so kind and explain it to me.

"a tea is harvested and pressed in 2019 from trees that are 300 years old is a young gushu. New production, old trees. "

So when that young becomes old , and when that happens , will he have to re-name and re-pack the tea to the Old Gushu label?

please no flames, I'm just asking.

You've probably read my posts in this thread and I just want to add to all that. MLF is not only the one vendor with the "claim" issue ( just happened they are the most visible on internet ...literally...YT ).
I have learned to ignore this because I realized that people who can distinguish tea from 100-300-500 years old tea trees , real Bing Dao from Nan Po , or 5-10-20 years old puerh dry / wet storage , .....etc. .... by blind tasting , already know exactly how and were to buy their tea anyway.
I don't get the purpose of the questioning here, making I'm missing something. From what I see, it appears they are selling out each batch seasonally each year of this particular offering so each batch never has an opportunity to become "aged". Obviously I don't know that for sure but it appears so. If they were to hold a 2020 production of a gushu for a few decades, then yes I guess aged gushu might be an appropriate label.

The term "young sheng" is very common and people widely seem to know what it means, I think their usage of "young gushu" is essentially what they would consider some small, somewhat clever wordplay of something that appears initially an oxymoron but in reality makes sense. Upon thinking about it I do think this could be a language thing, the explanation is simple but maybe the wordplay isn't obvious to non-native speaker. ML teas including this one aren't direct references to the type of tea, they do use more colourful language for names, I think you're looking at a bit too literally.

Which vendors do you trust to purchase high end raw puerh from? Or do you have more direct access to producers?
Bok wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:30 am
Jeanbb a few hundred bucks from the above mentioned doesn’t add up to much to be honest(for Western accessible teas). Nothing wrong with that, not everyone has vast sums to spend on tea and good tea is expensive.

To know what’s bad, one needs to know what’s good. So before insulting at random, I’d tread more carefully.

I’d order some teas from the likes as Tillerman, Teamasters, Taiwan tea crafts, the Jade leaf for example and compare that to ML. Can’t speak for Chinese teas as I rarely drink them and don’t know any vendors.
I didn't say a few hundred bucks, I said a few hundred bucks at minimum from those particular dealers, various in the thousands. Again, I'm not a fan of this kind of flippant poor use language or basic misrepresentations which was the reason I felt compelled to post out of the extent of how bad or out of touch with reality some of the posts here were. I also clearly don't think my post had a single "insult at random", everything I said was true and focused on comments that were either untrue or made bold, negative claims with no facts to back them up. I've treaded more carefully in my post than the posts I criticised of others. I don't think comments almost exclusively from people who haven't tried the tea or equivalent of "+1 for the tea sucks" are useful, particularly as so many of the complaints involve marketing. The superficiality of the criticisms is no different than marketing, albeit in the opposite direction.

Out of interest, do you have any experience with Taiwan Sourcing and how would they compare to those particular vendors you mentioned? I would echo your sentiment in one of your previous posts that the best option is to sample from a variety of vendors and compare.

Shine Magical wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:10 am
Hi Jeanbb, welcome to the forum. What an amazingly detailed first post, I look forward to seeing your other contributions on this forum in the future.

In regards to your comment that I've never had Mei Leaf teas, here is one of my receipts from right before they rebranded. I stand by the comments I've made in this thread.

Though I do have to say that I'm in a place in my life now where I wouldn't publicly critique a tea or vendor due to prior bad experiences with some of the overly zealous personalities within the tea community. In fact, all I feel compelled to do nowadays is leave tasting notes and lurk within other threads. But since my older post is right on the front page and is being quoted... I'll just leave this here.
Apart from the time sink the reason I've avoided tea communities in the past is quite honestly I already spend too much money on it and going further down the rabbit hole and engaging on places like this is only going to make that worse. Maybe tasting notes for some more impressive experiences or hanging around when about to make a big buy.

I'll take your word for it overall, although just on a few specific examples there I think some are undeniably high quality teas. The Jin Jun Mei for example is the only I have found that comes from the correct area, correct cultivar and represents an example that matches what the original production of the tea is. Its less than twenty years old, the son of the man that developed it is still alive and has discussed the differences with various knockoff productions that are virtually everywhere else even on highly regarded and legitimate vendors. In particular golden eyebrow referencing the grade being gold, not the buds as in typical examples. Yet I never see criticism of YS for selling knockoff, crappy JJM as "competition grade" for example when its middle of the road tea that isn't significantly better than what you might get at a street market.

If as a beginner you had tastes picky enough to distinguish and deem MLs Long Jing, Jin Xuan, Mi Lan Xang and Da Hong Pao as throwaway compared to the average at other vendors constantly mentioned here and elsewhere online you'd have most critical eye of a beginner in the tea world of all time. Personally I think either you're stretching the truth a little or some leaned towards acquired tastes, or personal preference in types of tea hadn't developed yet. Feel free to think I'm being a condescending prick in saying that, I genuinely don't know the answer. These in particular I wouldn't consider standout teas, however I think it would be a miracle if a noobie could pick it as a dud in a blind tasting against five or so other vendors.
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TeaTotaling
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:13 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:30 pm
Also, Chinese ancestry or relatives there does not suggest or equal any better access, knowledge, or skills in Chinese tea.

Otherwise does any German know how to build cars and cook pork knuckle? Does any Thai know how to do a massage? Etc. ... Certainly not. Dangerous and misleading assumptions.
🔑Keywords included, “maybe/maybe not?”..........

No suggestion was made in an attempt to formulate a concrete opinion. Merely pointing to the facts, and asking questions.

In this case, “Dangerous and misleading”....seems far-fetched, and highly unlikely. 🤔🤨
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Bok
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:26 pm

TeaTotaling wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:13 am
In this case, “Dangerous and misleading”....seems far-fetched, and highly unlikely. 🤔🤨
you are right, scrap the word dangerous.
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aet
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:45 pm

@Jeanbb thanks for taking a time to explain that. Sorry my bad, misunderstanding. I get it now. What they actually mean is the "New Tea" ..that's how we call it in China. So u were right "language issues".

"Which vendors do you trust to purchase high end raw puerh from? Or do you have more direct access to producers? "

I only trust my stable suppliers and my tongue , which also can get confused because so many options how to adjust the taste of the tea leaf are applied these days. So much marketing going on , especially around puerh.
That's why is literally no point to "fight" ( keep criticizing false claims ) with that and let it go. I believe that those vendors who intentionally make false claims, the karma will find them eventually.

We have a tea shop close to the Xiong Da and Jin Shi tea markets in Kunming and yes, I do have access to some exclusive teas either from trusted supply or directly from the garden when go to tea mountain ( usually spring and autumn ). There are very good and quite expensive teas here which hardly reach foreign market ( if you read my previous posts in this thread , I explained why ).

Yesterday I was offered on other wholesale tea market ( no tourists place ) a 200g Bing Dao cake from some 200y around old tea trees for 8000CNY.
Should I add my humble margin , ship it overseas and risk that parcel get lost ( China post not refunding any money if parcel doesn't arrive ..no insurance here available , all refunds you get comes from vendor's savings ) , I would be rather doing different adrenaline sport ;-)

Let alone that you can buy BD from 500y old tea trees in center of London for less than half price ;-) ...hope you understand what I mean.

So I do not bother with such a tea for overseas market and if I can suggest you something , stop looking for it as well.
Many beginning puerh tea drinkers are focusing on the "Name" rather than the taste.
Some people chasing factories, some old age of the tea trees , many very old age of puerh ( storage 80's, 90's ) , some go for famous locations. All those factors are marketed and abused for increasing the sales. Tea is processed and re-stored so can imitate taste of what is to be claimed. It does take a lot of time , experience and energy to get some exclusive pieces in legit labeling. One has to remember , that you are in competition with Chinese tea lovers ( quite a crowd though ) ;-)

The easiest way is to find / pick a shop/s ( google , reddit vendors list , steepster vendors DB ) , and sample teas which you think you can buy full cake ( product ) . Sample few shops ( local , overseas ) and compare price - taste (your taste buds , not what some people say in forums about it). Make your own decisions. Tea directly from the source doesn't always mean the best deal.

I understand you opinion about fire on MLF , but with big audience is common that you get a Fame & Flame ;-)
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TeaTotaling
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Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:50 pm

Bok wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:26 pm
TeaTotaling wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:13 am
In this case, “Dangerous and misleading”....seems far-fetched, and highly unlikely. 🤔🤨
you are right, scrap the word dangerous.
😂 👍🏻 I was going to say, you don't seem like the fear mongering type...but what do I know?!
tendingtropic
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:48 am

Dear people at Tea Forum,

Just like @Jeanbb, I created an account to post here, so this is my first post, please bear with me.

I was a total tea ignorant person a month ago. After half a lifetime drinking mediocre coffee and sometimes tea with teabags, I decided to go for a barista course and started enjoying and making good espresso. This brought me to James Hoffman vids on youtube, and then I wondered about tea. Could I improve my tea experience, as I can't drink espresso all day!

So I stumbled upon Don Mei and his videos. I must admit, I was impressed by his enthousiasm as a beginner, and I learned a lot, its what got me into loose leaf tea drinking. Also, I live in Europe (Amsterdam), so it made more sense to order within Europe at first (due to delivery times). So, within a few weeks, I ordered almost 500 euros worth of teas and began my journey. I enjoyed almost every tea from them, and now I consider myself a teahead.

Then I seem to have made the mistake of stumbling upon this forum and read all the nasty things about them. It actually hurted a little. I mean, obviously I agree that marketing plays a big role, and he bluffed here and there, and he also made a stupid mistake with a sticker. Also, the tea may be overpriced, partially also due to packaging (which I like as a newbie, because the instructions are clear). I believe he earns some credit for the many people he pulls in to the tea world. Also his competitors should be thankful, as they ultimately benefit from this too.

What I'm mostly put off about is that I read many negative comments about their teas from people that havent tasted them. You can say anything you like about people their marketing, but at the end I just want to taste / enjoy good teas.

That said, I'm happy with posts of @Jeanbb and @l@lUKAV28 that have at least clearly tasted teas of several vendors.

I am now searching to move on, and find the 'best teas' out there, just out of curiosity and striving for the best experience.
I still have many meileaf teas here, so I can A to B them.

But I need your advise : what should I compare them with?
and I ask this especially to the people that have also tasted MeiLeafs teas: What have been the better vendors in your opinion? what are the best ones? preferrably European importers, but on the other hand, for the best teas, I'm willing to pay extra shipping costs and wait a few weeks.

Hope to hear your recommendations, and happy to be on this forum, hope to learn a lot from you!
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Victoria
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:01 am

@tendingtropic Welcome to TeaForum. Can you share which teas you ordered and enjoyed? That way we can recommend a few other reputable vendors to you for a good comparison. You might also browse our Vendor Discussion & Recommendation forum. Sounds like you dove in head first into your tea journey which is great :). Take negative comments with a grain of salt and enjoy what you like 🍃
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klepto
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:28 am

tendingtropic wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:48 am
Dear people at Tea Forum,

Just like Jeanbb, I created an account to post here, so this is my first post, please bear with me.

I was a total tea ignorant person a month ago. After half a lifetime drinking mediocre coffee and sometimes tea with teabags, I decided to go for a barista course and started enjoying and making good espresso. This brought me to James Hoffman vids on youtube, and then I wondered about tea. Could I improve my tea experience, as I can't drink espresso all day!

So I stumbled upon Don Mei and his videos. I must admit, I was impressed by his enthousiasm as a beginner, and I learned a lot, its what got me into loose leaf tea drinking. Also, I live in Europe (Amsterdam), so it made more sense to order within Europe at first (due to delivery times). So, within a few weeks, I ordered almost 500 euros worth of teas and began my journey. I enjoyed almost every tea from them, and now I consider myself a teahead.
I wouldn't worry too much about the negativity about mei leaf, the feather gate and other things aren't that big a deal. Between Don and Sofan from Tea House Ghost, I learned how to brew tea gong fu style and later on thanks to this forum I got even more knowledge and great advice. As far as european vendors I'd try Terre de Ciel(France) and Post Card Teas(UK). Don is overzealous but he bringing new tea users in the fold everyday so I can't be too critical.
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cbrace
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:38 pm

@tendingtropic Welcome! I'm a newcomer here too. I learned lots from the Mei Leaf YouTube channel at one point, but I've yet to sample any of their teas, so I cannot comment on that. For awhile I subscribed to their email newsletter, but unsubscribed because the hard-sell rubbed me the wrong way.

I see you live in Amsterdam too. You might be interested to know that the prominent Russian tea importer and tea salon operator Moychay is planning to open a branch in Amsterdam, on the Rozengracht. Apparently they have only recently signed the lease so they probably won't be opening their doors until the beginning of next year. They already have an Instagram account though :D

It will be interesting to see in due time what their offerings will be. As you can see from their main website, they have a lot of puerhs and other high-end teas.
tendingtropic
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:52 pm

Thanks everyone, I already feel welcome.

Like I said, I'm drinking too much tea at the moment haha, so tasting a lot and gaining insight fast.
I will check out those other european sites, and definitely keep an eye on the new amsterdam place when it will open, thank you!

i just checked the yunnan sourcing site and youtube, i'm not so impressed by the youtube videos; but is the general opinion really that their tea is better? or is that just a patriot US thing?

also, whats all this between gaiwan vs clay, does it really make that much of a difference (i'm still on the gaiwan train for now)
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klepto
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:08 pm

tendingtropic wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:52 pm
Thanks everyone, I already feel welcome.

Like I said, I'm drinking too much tea at the moment haha, so tasting a lot and gaining insight fast.
I will check out those other european sites, and definitely keep an eye on the new amsterdam place when it will open, thank you!

i just checked the yunnan sourcing site and youtube, i'm not so impressed by the youtube videos; but is the general opinion really that their tea is better? or is that just a patriot US thing?

also, whats all this between gaiwan vs clay, does it really make that much of a difference (i'm still on the gaiwan train for now)
IMHO, for now you want to stick with a porcelain gaiwan as it will not affect the taste of the tea in any way so you can figure out what types of tea you like or specificially where your favorite tea comes from. Once you have some good information on your preferences then the move to a clay teapot will be fun and interesting. Funny thing, is that you might think you know what your favorite tea is now but after heavily sampling various teas you will have knowledge and you may find out that other teas scratch an itch you didn't know you had. I tried a tea once from a free sample, hated it.. a year later and it is my favorite tea type. Fun times :D
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Balthazar
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:36 pm

tendingtropic wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:52 pm
i just checked the yunnan sourcing site and youtube, i'm not so impressed by the youtube videos; but is the general opinion really that their tea is better? or is that just a patriot US thing?
Impressed in what way? The personality of the host, or his knowledge of tea? I sometimes feel there is an inverse relationship between "youtube video quality" and tea quality of vendors, by the way, but that's an anecdotal observation at best

Also, better than what? YS has a huge selection. He has some great stuff, some mediocre stuff and also some (imo) bad stuff. But in my humble opinion, as far as "westerns vendors " go, he usually offers quite good value for they money. And there's less exaggeratet marketing. I'm a European, so definitely no patriotism invoved in my assessment...

That being said, these days I rarely buy stuff from YS, but it was a very useful place to start out and try a broad range of different teas.

What kinds of tea are you primarily interested in, by the way?
tendingtropic
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:07 pm

I love the diversity to be honest, but if I had to choose, i seem to lean more towards the chinese green teas, and the oolong diversity (the jury is still out)
not yet sold on puerhs or black teas (can be nice ofourse, but socks still on).
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LeoFox
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:42 pm

tendingtropic wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:07 pm
I love the diversity to be honest, but if I had to choose, i seem to lean more towards the chinese green teas, and the oolong diversity (the jury is still out)
not yet sold on puerhs or black teas (can be nice ofourse, but socks still on).
Which teas of his has been the best for you?
Noonie
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Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:08 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:36 pm
tendingtropic wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:52 pm
i just checked the yunnan sourcing site and youtube, i'm not so impressed by the youtube videos; but is the general opinion really that their tea is better? or is that just a patriot US thing?
Impressed in what way? The personality of the host, or his knowledge of tea? I sometimes feel there is an inverse relationship between "youtube video quality" and tea quality of vendors, by the way, but that's an anecdotal observation at best

Also, better than what? YS has a huge selection. He has some great stuff, some mediocre stuff and also some (imo) bad stuff. But in my humble opinion, as far as "westerns vendors " go, he usually offers quite good value for they money. And there's less exaggeratet marketing. I'm a European, so definitely no patriotism invoved in my assessment...

That being said, these days I rarely buy stuff from YS, but it was a very useful place to start out and try a broad range of different teas.

What kinds of tea are you primarily interested in, by the way?
I've had 10-20 YS teas and find they are always adequately priced. The inexpensive ones are usually good value, and the more pricey ones are usually worth it. I live in Canada and can free DHL shipping from their US site (again, good value).

I think their videos are again, good value (comparing what they put into them). Not a tonne of depth, editing or flash, but that means Scott and his wife are busy sourcing tea and all the other things that go into such a business...so while not the best source for great videos (I love Tea House Ghost in comparison), I gladly buy their tea 'because' I think they're spending their time and money where they should be.
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