I didn't necessarily mean in the sense that people see them as too cheap, but rather was just expressing as someone who has bought reasonably large amounts from a variety of vendors in terms of general range of quality I think some of the reactions here are clearly emotional or hostile purely on the basis of MLs image, Youtube presence and audience. Yes there was clearly sarcasm in my questioning but there's sincerity behind it of asking where exactly are some of the people here buying their teas, and what are they buying that would make these reactions appear rational. Because realistically I think there's not a chance in hell that if they were presented ML teas against those of W2T, Crimson Lotus, YS, Wuyi origin or Teavivre in a blind test they'd have noticeably more negative reactions to ML over any of the other vendors. I'm sure there are certain examples of ML teas they'd be very pleased with as well, just as long as the blindfold stayed on. Reddit regularly has people drinking and praising Harney and Sons with no haters in the comments for example but similarly dunking on Mei Leaf, strange forms of elitism in the tea world definitely exist.Balthazar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:11 pmAnother reason is that it's really hard to believe that a tea importer that has to pay rent for a teahouse in London is going to offer similar quality for the money than what I can get from vendors (or individual collectors) operating out of Asia. This of course is not unique for Mei Leaf. The French chain Palais des Thés maintains stores around Europe, including in Oslo where I live. There's no way they can offer anything even close to "good value". So if I were to buy something from there today, it would be to support their existence more than hoping to find a gem.
I don't think anyone is suggesting their teas are too cheap. You'll find plenty of good feedback on vendors at the same or a significantly cheaper price point, YS being an obvious example. I also don't think the elitism charge is warranted. If you look around Reddit and Steepster threads there are plenty of people critical of Mei Leaf, their marketing, and their price/quality ratio.
Also, I think it's kind of ironic that you're sarcastically writing "new village Bing Dao" and Lao Ban Zhang, seeing how out of 13 puers currently on Mei Leaf's raw puer page, all besides two have "gushu" claims attached to them. One of them is supposedly even "sourced from crazy old tea trees in the hallowed forests of Bing Dao". That one "makes your mouth fizz" and may "cause excitability, giggliness and a floaty and shaking feeling in the legs with an almost narcotic dreaminess". Too bad it's sold out, I could use something like that in these COVID days...
In terms of value I largely agree, they did have a number of teas that I would purchase again but their packaging quite frankly sucks compared to elsewhere, purchasing from a generalised London tea vendor adds unnecessary costs and in terms of vendors I've used before they are easily the most expensive. Specifically in terms of raw puerh I thought the pricing seemed very fair and the quality was surprisingly high, although yes I am also sceptical of the use of "gushu", some of the tree age estimates they give are still unrealistic and some seemed too cheap from respective areas to be genuine or at least spring harvest teas. At the end of the day though my main concern is taste, feel, finish, distinctiveness, infusibility etc and ultimately how it compares to offerings from other vendors. Even for someone with reasonable experience I think they'd enjoy sampling a variety of their favourite tea types from ML, whether or not it makes sense to buy from them in terms of location and on cost in general.
And yes, their descriptions can be utterly ridiculous. Although I do think that a lingering feeling of mouth "fizz" in some raw puerh is legitimate especially after many steepings and that noticeable body or mind sensations can arise from specific teas under the right circumstances. But a less cringey or absurd description would be nice, I'd agree.
Good to see there are some arthouse film fans here btw.
I read it multiple times and majored English for one of my degrees, I indeed stand by what I wrote and don't know why you bother to obfuscate what you clearly implied, what anyone with a grasp of basic reading comprehension can see, and presently know you implied but deny regardless. You didn't explicitly claim their teas could do this but on a thread about ML where the majority of others were dunking on ML in a very casual, factually non-descript manner you implied they fit the description of bad tea. Then raised the question of whether a friend had got cancer from bad tea, subsequent to very clearly implying ML is bad tea. You also strongly suggested that their teas may have been produced with poor pesticide practises, again of which you have no direct proof. To top it off, you emphasise that the tea will make you "feel bad".Baisao wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:10 pmJeanbb, you should re-read what I wrote. My comment was is not about Mei Leaf but about “...the harm in drinking mediocre or bad teas.”
Yes, a friend of mine died of stomach cancer at too young an age and it did prompt me to consider if it was from tasting teas over decades that were improperly produced.
I have had negative experiences with mediocre or bad teas. Frequently, the body load of these teas just feels awful and can persist for days.
If someone claims there is no harm in drinking mediocre or bad tea, I’ll tell them otherwise. They can be hazardous to your health or they can simply make you feel sick.
There is nothing ridiculous in this.
I'll call it how I see it, I think the post was melodramatic, overly emotional, relied on random anecdotes, fearmongering and claims that could not be factually verified as accurate. Worse, you said this without ever having tried their tea (or at least this is strongly implied) On a tea forum under an alias it is what it is, but I think the core of the comment is bordering on libellous in a moral sense. I find MLs marketing a little annoying, what your comment is however is a masterclass in competitive marketing that is as hollow factually as it comes.
I don't get the purpose of the questioning here, making I'm missing something. From what I see, it appears they are selling out each batch seasonally each year of this particular offering so each batch never has an opportunity to become "aged". Obviously I don't know that for sure but it appears so. If they were to hold a 2020 production of a gushu for a few decades, then yes I guess aged gushu might be an appropriate label.aet wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:47 pmJeanbb
interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm just puzzled with one thing you have mentioned. If you would be so kind and explain it to me.
"a tea is harvested and pressed in 2019 from trees that are 300 years old is a young gushu. New production, old trees. "
So when that young becomes old , and when that happens , will he have to re-name and re-pack the tea to the Old Gushu label?
please no flames, I'm just asking.
You've probably read my posts in this thread and I just want to add to all that. MLF is not only the one vendor with the "claim" issue ( just happened they are the most visible on internet ...literally...YT ).
I have learned to ignore this because I realized that people who can distinguish tea from 100-300-500 years old tea trees , real Bing Dao from Nan Po , or 5-10-20 years old puerh dry / wet storage , .....etc. .... by blind tasting , already know exactly how and were to buy their tea anyway.
The term "young sheng" is very common and people widely seem to know what it means, I think their usage of "young gushu" is essentially what they would consider some small, somewhat clever wordplay of something that appears initially an oxymoron but in reality makes sense. Upon thinking about it I do think this could be a language thing, the explanation is simple but maybe the wordplay isn't obvious to non-native speaker. ML teas including this one aren't direct references to the type of tea, they do use more colourful language for names, I think you're looking at a bit too literally.
Which vendors do you trust to purchase high end raw puerh from? Or do you have more direct access to producers?
I didn't say a few hundred bucks, I said a few hundred bucks at minimum from those particular dealers, various in the thousands. Again, I'm not a fan of this kind of flippant poor use language or basic misrepresentations which was the reason I felt compelled to post out of the extent of how bad or out of touch with reality some of the posts here were. I also clearly don't think my post had a single "insult at random", everything I said was true and focused on comments that were either untrue or made bold, negative claims with no facts to back them up. I've treaded more carefully in my post than the posts I criticised of others. I don't think comments almost exclusively from people who haven't tried the tea or equivalent of "+1 for the tea sucks" are useful, particularly as so many of the complaints involve marketing. The superficiality of the criticisms is no different than marketing, albeit in the opposite direction.Bok wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:30 amJeanbb a few hundred bucks from the above mentioned doesn’t add up to much to be honest(for Western accessible teas). Nothing wrong with that, not everyone has vast sums to spend on tea and good tea is expensive.
To know what’s bad, one needs to know what’s good. So before insulting at random, I’d tread more carefully.
I’d order some teas from the likes as Tillerman, Teamasters, Taiwan tea crafts, the Jade leaf for example and compare that to ML. Can’t speak for Chinese teas as I rarely drink them and don’t know any vendors.
Out of interest, do you have any experience with Taiwan Sourcing and how would they compare to those particular vendors you mentioned? I would echo your sentiment in one of your previous posts that the best option is to sample from a variety of vendors and compare.
Apart from the time sink the reason I've avoided tea communities in the past is quite honestly I already spend too much money on it and going further down the rabbit hole and engaging on places like this is only going to make that worse. Maybe tasting notes for some more impressive experiences or hanging around when about to make a big buy.Shine Magical wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:10 amHi Jeanbb, welcome to the forum. What an amazingly detailed first post, I look forward to seeing your other contributions on this forum in the future.
In regards to your comment that I've never had Mei Leaf teas, here is one of my receipts from right before they rebranded. I stand by the comments I've made in this thread.
Though I do have to say that I'm in a place in my life now where I wouldn't publicly critique a tea or vendor due to prior bad experiences with some of the overly zealous personalities within the tea community. In fact, all I feel compelled to do nowadays is leave tasting notes and lurk within other threads. But since my older post is right on the front page and is being quoted... I'll just leave this here.
I'll take your word for it overall, although just on a few specific examples there I think some are undeniably high quality teas. The Jin Jun Mei for example is the only I have found that comes from the correct area, correct cultivar and represents an example that matches what the original production of the tea is. Its less than twenty years old, the son of the man that developed it is still alive and has discussed the differences with various knockoff productions that are virtually everywhere else even on highly regarded and legitimate vendors. In particular golden eyebrow referencing the grade being gold, not the buds as in typical examples. Yet I never see criticism of YS for selling knockoff, crappy JJM as "competition grade" for example when its middle of the road tea that isn't significantly better than what you might get at a street market.
If as a beginner you had tastes picky enough to distinguish and deem MLs Long Jing, Jin Xuan, Mi Lan Xang and Da Hong Pao as throwaway compared to the average at other vendors constantly mentioned here and elsewhere online you'd have most critical eye of a beginner in the tea world of all time. Personally I think either you're stretching the truth a little or some leaned towards acquired tastes, or personal preference in types of tea hadn't developed yet. Feel free to think I'm being a condescending prick in saying that, I genuinely don't know the answer. These in particular I wouldn't consider standout teas, however I think it would be a miracle if a noobie could pick it as a dud in a blind tasting against five or so other vendors.