Mei leaf

teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:34 pm

Mei Leaf is all about social media engagement and social media marketing. They are very strong at that and arguably the (tea)worlds No 1. Since I live in Europe, the shipping from London to Zürich is way quicker than from Kunming to Zürich. And although Meil Leaf is insultingly overpriced, I quite like their “Master’s Matcha”. So, sometimes I order my Matcha from Mei Leaf and when doing so, I occasionally order some other “hot stuff”. Recently I bought that one here https://meileaf.com/tea/straight-faced-playmate/ to fill some empty space in the parcel. Luckily for a comparison with other trusted vendors, Essence of tea offers a similar sheng https://essenceoftea.com/collections/pu ... cient-tree. Both at a similar price level, both very similar age and according to their flavour profile discription also quite similar (“a creeper”). I have sampled both a couple of times (brewed in silver) and am ashamed to admit, I found the Mei Leaf tea ever so slightly better. At least with that particular tea, EoT and Mei Leaf are neck and neck.
JournalerMarie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:27 pm

teabug wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:34 pm
Mei Leaf is all about social media engagement and social media marketing. They are very strong at that and arguably the (tea)worlds No 1. Since I live in Europe, the shipping from London to Zürich is way quicker than from Kunming to Zürich. And although Meil Leaf is insultingly overpriced, I quite like their “Master’s Matcha”. So, sometimes I order my Matcha from Mei Leaf and when doing so, I occasionally order some other “hot stuff”. Recently I bought that one here https://meileaf.com/tea/straight-faced-playmate/ to fill some empty space in the parcel. Luckily for a comparison with other trusted vendors, Essence of tea offers a similar sheng https://essenceoftea.com/collections/pu ... cient-tree. Both at a similar price level, both very similar age and according to their flavour profile discription also quite similar (“a creeper”). I have sampled both a couple of times (brewed in silver) and am ashamed to admit, I found the Mei Leaf tea ever so slightly better. At least with that particular tea, EoT and Mei Leaf are neck and neck.
Hey, there's no need to be ashamed! I'm a hypocrite about this. I also love Mei Leaf teas, but because they're not popular on this forum, I don't like being loud about it. I'm on this forum to learn and connect with people, not to initiate conflict. That said, it cheered me to read this! I just bought a sheng from them for the first time. (I've bought sheng samples from other sellers before.)

I feel like Mei Leaf get a lot of hate for being brave enough to try to be descriptive. I get why most tea sellers don't even try. Taste and smell is somewhat subjective, not to mention dependent at least in part on the brewer's technique and water supply. So most tea sellers post the most vague descriptions (if anything) of what you an expect from the tea, and provide nothing for the customers to critique. Not even an explanation of what criteria they use to source, or why they picked THAT tea. To me, this description and explanation adds value both as an education tool (in general on the tea type, and specifically on what aspects of the tea I like/dislike) and as a demonstration of the level of attention and care that Mei Leaf puts into tea sourcing.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1397
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:54 pm

JournalerMarie wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:27 pm
I feel like Mei Leaf get a lot of hate for being brave enough to try to be descriptive.
In my experience, Thés du Japon sets the standard for the description of their teas. The parameters are always spot on, too. If Florent says there is an aroma, flavor, or certain texture in a tea, by golly it is there. These details carry on even to the tea packaging.

You’ll also note that there’s not a lot of hate for Thés du Japon.

Cheers!
JournalerMarie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:28 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:54 pm
JournalerMarie wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:27 pm
I feel like Mei Leaf get a lot of hate for being brave enough to try to be descriptive.
In my experience, Thés du Japon sets the standard for the description of their teas. The parameters are always spot on, too. If Florent says there is an aroma, flavor, or certain texture in a tea, by golly it is there. These details carry on even to the tea packaging.

You’ll also note that there’s not a lot of hate for Thés du Japon.

Cheers!
Thanks for the rec! You're right- their description is wonderful and specific. It is clear that they put care into selecting their teas. Their Beni-Ibara looks very tempting.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1397
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:45 pm

I’m fond of their kama-iri, “wulong”, and sencha teas. They specialize in single estate and single varietal teas. My favorite varietals so far have been Shizu-7132, Gokô, Sofu, and Yamakai. The flavors are more unique, varied, and surprising to me than what I’ve found naturally occurring in oolongs.

I haven’t tried his blacks but I have tried dozens of various teas and have not been disappointed.

Additionally, he has a very fine blog.
JournalerMarie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:44 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:45 pm
I’m fond of their kama-iri, “wulong”, and sencha teas. They specialize in single estate and single varietal teas. My favorite varietals so far have been Shizu-7132, Gokô, Sofu, and Yamakai. The flavors are more unique, varied, and surprising to me than what I’ve found naturally occurring in oolongs.

I haven’t tried his blacks but I have tried dozens of various teas and have not been disappointed.

Additionally, he has a very fine blog.
Thank you for the specific recs! I am particularly interested in oolongs and the teas listed as Kamairi-Cha, since I am not a fan of very vegetal steamed teas.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1397
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:10 am

@JournalerMarie, my pleasure. These Japanese oolongs are not vegetal but they are different from Taiwanese and mainland oolongs. This is one of the reasons why I think Florent calls them “wulongs”. The Japanese did a lot of research on varietals, vegetative selection, and hybrids at the beginning of the 20th century. They then brought that experience to Taiwan during their occupation. This is why we have Jin Xuan, among others. Florent’s focus on this aspect of Japanese teas is unique in a market dominated by blends.

I didn’t intend for this to be a plug but if you are searching for accurate descriptions of teas, I can think of no one else who is so detailed and accurate. I’ve been at this a while and he consistently impresses me with the accuracy of his palate.

Cheers!
JournalerMarie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:35 am

Baisao wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:10 am
JournalerMarie, my pleasure. These Japanese oolongs are not vegetal but they are different from Taiwanese and mainland oolongs. This is one of the reasons why I think Florent calls them “wulongs”. The Japanese did a lot of research on varietals, vegetative selection, and hybrids at the beginning of the 20th century. They then brought that experience to Taiwan during their occupation. This is why we have Jin Xuan, among others. Florent’s focus on this aspect of Japanese teas is unique in a market dominated by blends.

I didn’t intend for this to be a plug but if you are searching for accurate descriptions of teas, I can think of no one else who is so detailed and accurate. I’ve been at this a while and he consistently impresses me with the accuracy of his palate.

Cheers!
I'm very happy for this plug. :) In my introduction post, I listed the desire to learn about more tea-vendors among my reasons for joining this forum. Recommendations like this are exactly why I'm here. I don't think I would have looked into this seller without your recommendation because I wrongfully assumed that Japan did not produce teas that were to my taste.
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:42 am

JournalerMarie wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:35 am
I wrongfully assumed that Japan did not produce teas that were to my taste.
Same thing happened to me, even after going to Japan on various occasions... just need to find the right vendor sometimes.
John_B
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:42 am
Location: Bangkok
Contact:

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:11 am

I have mixed feelings about Mei Leaf, which I usually communicate as criticism, because the negative parts really stand out. They sell decent tea, it's just that it's possible to buy as good or better tea for less (or at least that's the conventional take, which I've only experienced based on much earlier versions of their teas). The wordy descriptions and background information are potential problems.

Given that tea experience is partly subjective, that it's not as if there are only 4-8 distinct flavor related compounds in any given tea example, interpretation does come into play. Don might be regarded as exaggerating in descriptions, or maybe those are just novel and valid aspect lists, and other descriptions could be just as valid.

The information in the videos and text content is always mostly right but typically there are parts that you can flag as incomplete or in error if you know the background well. If he is selling a Rou Gui that happens to taste a lot like cinnamon he will emphasize how that's a typical flavor aspect, and if he's selling one that's not he will de-emphasize that, instead of just describing the range that is typical, that both come up. The type descriptions always point towards selling the product being discussed. I just wrote about an oolong type and was looking at related content so let's go with Qi Dan as an example, the one original Da Hong Pao related type, along with Bei Dou. His account:

https://meileaf.com/tea/empress-oolong/

Before anything else, it is important to say that this is pure Qi Dan cultivar Da Hong Pao (Big Red Robe) which is far superior in my mind to the blended Da Hong Pao out there made primarily from Shui Xian and Rou Gui. The Qi Dan variety is one of the original Da Hong Pao mother bush varieties which was propagated throughout Wuyi from the original Da Hong Pao trees in the 1980's.

MOUTH - TASTE
Pannacotta, cooked peaches, fudge and cherry cough sweets.
NOSE - EMPTY CUP
Raspberries and hazelnut nougat.
MOUTH - FINISH
Juicy, tingly with a sweet mangosteen aftertaste.


So far so good; he even sites Bei Dou as the other main type. Here's where it shifts to not as correct:

The tea is produced by hand and is then roasted for many hours slowly over real charcoal fires. This adds a warmth, smoothness and nutty depth to the tea. We advise avoiding any of these roasted oolongs for at least 6 months after they have been produced in order to let the 'fire' taste of the charcoal roasting to reduce. This is why we always stock tea picked in the previous year.

Yes and no. According to a friend who produces Wuyi Yancha optimum roast level is tied to tea material type and desired final outcome, and in some cases using a level of roasting that requires a year of rest is suitable. High level of roast is also a technique used to mask that a blend of different inputs is being used, or to cover up flaws in a tea version. Producing an exceptional version of Qi Dan that is roasted to the extent it needs a year of rest to be sellable doesn't make sense. To some extent producers can create different styles, so maybe I'm mixing the ideas of producer choices and an objective best, but it's my impression that's not what is going on here. Let's check another much better regarded source for this oolong type, made by that friend's family:

https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/ ... b8%b9-2021

Location : Qing Shi Yan (青狮岩)

Harvest date: 2021.5. 10th (Qi dan is a late cultivar)

roasting level : 3times roasting (medium roasting style )


The shape is curved, dark brown or dark green. The ropes are tight, compact, clear and bright. The fragrance is floral and fruity, while the fragrance is strong and long, while the fragrance is clear and distant. It may be like peach, orchid, osmanthus, frankincense and so on. The taste is mellow, smooth and refreshing, with a unique "rock rhyme". The bottom of the leaf is soft and bright, with green and red edges, or with red dots on its margins.

There's no evaluating those descriptions without trying the teas; Don may be dead right or else using his imagination. There's a pretty good chance they are selling an over-roasted version, which will settle after just a year of rest, as he says. For some oolong plant types a heavier roast input is regarded as ideal, per that other producer's input, seemingly just not that one. Glancing through their website even though they list a lot of types none are a year old, which I assume relates to them seeing a style of processing and outcome as more ideal for selling through that channel, although that could be wrong.

The idea that a lot of Da Hong Pao is "fake" isn't the entire story. The term is now used as often to represent a blended tea instead of a single type. The same kind of theme comes up for sheng pu'er, in that mixing inputs isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just different. I think of it in relation to a Bordeaux blend not being inferior to a Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot; they are three different things. Someone selling you Shui Xian at a higher price or an over-roasted mix, again a processing step used to mask flaws, is something else. Ever-narrower sources and types are trendy in tea now in "the West," so a sheng pu'er vendor like White 2 Tea is swimming upstream a bit for putting the outcome first and setting the back-story aside. Or maybe they are often using medium quality material to make more balanced versions that can pass for better, I don't know.

The real story of Don's Qi Dan can only be evaluated by tasting it in comparison with other good versions, and I would be guessing in saying how it would do. As I see it he made two adjustments in the information presented that deviated from offering a complete background that instead worked as sales pitch: he skipped filling in how DHP blends really work, the two forms, and slightly misrepresented that rest after roasting issue. Even that Wuyi Origin tea will change slightly over the next 6 months, maybe to many people's preference, but if you could taste char in the tea now that would be a considerable processing flaw.

People critique Mei Leaf a lot for apparently false claims (all their sheng is gushu, and some age claims have been absurd in the past) but as I see it the mapping of tea quality to cost is the thing. Both those teas are in the general 50 cent a gram range, so not all that expensive for that tea type, but there's a good chance that his is not nearly as good, probably an over-roasted version that started from lower quality material. But then it would be interesting if that is wrong, and it actually is better, which is at least possible.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:39 am

I have so far sampled one Yancha from Mei Leaf - “undercover DHP” https://meileaf.com/tea/undercover-dhp/ . At that time the tea was discounted down to about $30 per 25g tea. Regular price is about $38 for 25g. So, not cheap. But for yanchas probably not overly expensive either. You can find a few yanchas on EoT for about the same price range. And in that Mei Leaf range, I have sampled:
https://essenceoftea.com/products/2018 ... 3958011037
https://essenceoftea.com/products/2018 ... 5150562461
https://essenceoftea.com/products/2019 ... 9672375453
The Mei Leaf yancha does not even come close to the EoT yanchas!
Since I also have had exposure to Yunnansourcing https://yunnansourcing.com/products/sh ... long-tea-1 and https://yunnansourcing.com/products/13 ... oolong-tea as well as some $25/50g Chawangshop Yanchas, I can compare the Mei Leaf Yancha to much lower priced offerings and can say with confidence, that the Mei Leaf one is extremely overpriced. I go even as far as to rate the Mei Leaf Yancha the worst of the whole lot. So, when it comes to Yancha, I will shun Mei Leaf. I have still some Oolongs from Mei Leaf to go through and am curious as to what quality those are. I’m planning on sampling those in the next couple of weeks, starting with this one https://meileaf.com/tea/amber-gaba-oolong/ and then this one https://meileaf.com/tea/honey-duchess/.
User avatar
LeoFox
Posts: 1777
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:01 pm
Location: Washington DC

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:09 pm

Oh wow, the mei leaf yancha is worse than those teas from YS? One of those YS teas I ended up throwing into the garbage after two sessions, and I'm a pretty stingy guy!
User avatar
BriarOcelot
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:42 pm
Location: Montreal

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:21 pm

From a business perspective, Don and MeiLeaf have a significantly more complex and involved operation (a brick and mortar store in the middle of Camden in London as well as his own product lines and teaware ranges and online international presence).

He will have to charge more (for less) because he is spreading himself much, much thinner. Take a look at their site and product, it costs quite a bit of money to execute (I used to manage digital marketing strategy and hire agencies to run these sorts of operations; and just the rollout/upkeep for design, branding and digital side of the business are enormously costly, let alone the brick and mortar side plus international logistics etc.)

I think It's fair to assume his margins are quite a bit steeper, because they would be no way around it. He will have to source tea with a more restricted budget. Effectively his choice really as he chooses to do business this way...

As far as I see it, most of his clientele are teabag drinkers who are discovering loose teas - hardly the most discerning drinkers.

Wuyi Origins are almost the total opposite. I know who I'd rather buy from, and I know by taste comparison which tea I prefer (which is really the most important thing).

I recently received some of Wuyi Origin's Boutique Tie Luo Han and (by quite a long way) it's the best TLH I've ever had. It also costs a fair sum ($170 for a 250g bag or $95 for a 75g tin). I've had Meileaf tea before and none of it was particularly stunning... but it wasn't bad and it was an awful lot cheaper. Their Puerh cakes I don't think I'd ever buy, but I'm more of a factory drinker than a boutique drinker with pu. I enjoy my old Xiaguan etc.

I don't mean to be overly negative toward Mei leaf or add to any flack they may get; they seem good at what they do and I have a certain degree of respect toward Don as a business operator (maybe not the way I'd do things, but eh).

A generalist will never compete with a specialist and I think Don himself would probably concede that - but his market want to 'taste the rainbow' and that's kind of what he provides. If he cut his overheads significantly then he'd be able to sell better tea, but I suspect that's not what he's in business for.
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:32 pm

LeoFox wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:09 pm
Oh wow, the mei leaf yancha is worse than those teas from YS? One of those YS teas I ended up throwing into the garbage after two sessions, and I'm a pretty stingy guy!
In the garbage? :o You could have saved it for seasoning teapots…or you could have relabelled it and sold it with the support of some fancy-schmancy youtube videos and taste notes. “I’m getting vanilla pudding and lemon cest….” 8-)
teabug
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Location: Zurich (Switzerland)

Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:09 pm

BriarOcelot wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:21 pm
From a business perspective, Don and MeiLeaf have a significantly more complex and involved operation (a brick and mortar store in the middle of Camden in London as well as his own product lines and teaware ranges and online international presence).
Which means his brick and mortar shop and their product lines (what are their product lines by the way) are not covering the cost for running it and have to be subsidised by his online sales? One would assume the marketing effort pays off - brick and mortar as well as online sales.
BriarOcelot wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:21 pm
He will have to charge more (for less) because he is spreading himself much, much thinner. Take a look at their site and product, it costs quite a bit of money to execute (I used to manage digital marketing strategy and hire agencies to run these sorts of operations; and just the rollout/upkeep for design, branding and digital side of the business are enormously costly, let alone the brick and mortar side plus international logistics etc.)
His online presence is very good. Something one can’t really say for Yunnansourcing for instance. But I think it is not head and shoulders above others. His videos are though. He has that something about him to make those clips work.
BriarOcelot wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:21 pm
As far as I see it, most of his clientele are teabag drinkers who are discovering loose teas - hardly the most discerning drinkers.
True. That’s why he can get away with his greatly inflated prices. But at least, the one sheng I bought is to my liking (and that was the most expensive non-Matcha purchase I made on his site). Hopefully one of the two Mei Leaf Oolongs I still have unopended turns out to be decent. Due to those prolonged shipping times from China to Europe in the last two years, I also bought a Mi Lan Xiang last year from him which was not shockingly bad, but nothing to entice me for another purchase of that tea. I found the roast on that particular Mi Lan Ciang to be too weak. So, my hopes aren‘t sky high.

To this day I bought one Sheng, one type of Matcha, four Oolongs (of which I sampled two) and one green tea (I know, Matcha is also a green tea) from Don. So far the Matcha and the sheng are the only teas I would buy again. With Mei Leaf I always get the sneaking suspicion that I am being taken advantage of. Even more so than with the western facing sellers in China.
Post Reply