Mei leaf
I have not much to contribute here. @Balthazar summed up my reasoning quite well. I would either pay a premium to support local businesses I like, or order direct from Asia. Had I lived in London, I might give Mei Leaf a try.
Just like a normal conversation, people tend to go off tangent every once in a while. I don't think it's out of malice that the stomach cancer anecdote was recounted on the Mei Leaf thread.
If anything, I agree with you that there exist posters who oftentimes endorse or defame products they have no direct experience with. I'm not talking about Mei Leaf or this thread specifically, but those posters do exist.
Just like a normal conversation, people tend to go off tangent every once in a while. I don't think it's out of malice that the stomach cancer anecdote was recounted on the Mei Leaf thread.
If anything, I agree with you that there exist posters who oftentimes endorse or defame products they have no direct experience with. I'm not talking about Mei Leaf or this thread specifically, but those posters do exist.
@Jeanbb, you should re-read what I wrote. My comment was is not about Mei Leaf but about “...the harm in drinking mediocre or bad teas.”
Yes, a friend of mine died of stomach cancer at too young an age and it did prompt me to consider if it was from tasting teas over decades that were improperly produced.
I have had negative experiences with mediocre or bad teas. Frequently, the body load of these teas just feels awful and can persist for days.
If someone claims there is no harm in drinking mediocre or bad tea, I’ll tell them otherwise. They can be hazardous to your health or they can simply make you feel sick.
There is nothing ridiculous in this.
Yes, a friend of mine died of stomach cancer at too young an age and it did prompt me to consider if it was from tasting teas over decades that were improperly produced.
I have had negative experiences with mediocre or bad teas. Frequently, the body load of these teas just feels awful and can persist for days.
If someone claims there is no harm in drinking mediocre or bad tea, I’ll tell them otherwise. They can be hazardous to your health or they can simply make you feel sick.
There is nothing ridiculous in this.
- TeaTotaling
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:08 pm
- Location: Ohio
@Jeanbb Welcome!
My experience with Mei Leaf tea has been positive. As a rookie trying to navigate the waters early on, Don piqued my interest. Is his style for everybody, no, do I believe he is genuine, yes. Will he have the best access to high quality tea, maybe/maybe not? His deceased father is Chinese and had contacts in China for business and his wife’s family currently lives there.
I do believe he curates a clean selection, and I have had no ill experiences with any of his offerings. Compared to YS, the Puerh from Mei Leaf has been much better. I purchased a couple pricier options from YS’s collection, and I don’t really ever reach for them. Quite frankly, even his Yancha that I have tried has been great, compared to other quality sources.
His YouTube is no longer engaging for me, I have since moved on. He does tend to exaggerate, but I don’t think it’s with malicious intent. Dood just geeks out over tea.
Will I be a return customer, possibly here and there, but I have no current drive to support him further. Pricing is slightly higher, but compared to other vendors not really much more from my research and experience. Now if you are well connected and source farm direct or similarly, obviously these prices will look crazy high. I don’t have that luxury, I have not found that type of connection. If I could, I would.
All-in-all I think Donny Boy gets a bad rap for his excessive delivery and exaggerations. His tea doesn’t need the hype in my opinion, it’s pretty solid overall.
PS @Bok is usually a good voice of reason, cutting through the noise.
My experience with Mei Leaf tea has been positive. As a rookie trying to navigate the waters early on, Don piqued my interest. Is his style for everybody, no, do I believe he is genuine, yes. Will he have the best access to high quality tea, maybe/maybe not? His deceased father is Chinese and had contacts in China for business and his wife’s family currently lives there.
I do believe he curates a clean selection, and I have had no ill experiences with any of his offerings. Compared to YS, the Puerh from Mei Leaf has been much better. I purchased a couple pricier options from YS’s collection, and I don’t really ever reach for them. Quite frankly, even his Yancha that I have tried has been great, compared to other quality sources.
His YouTube is no longer engaging for me, I have since moved on. He does tend to exaggerate, but I don’t think it’s with malicious intent. Dood just geeks out over tea.
Will I be a return customer, possibly here and there, but I have no current drive to support him further. Pricing is slightly higher, but compared to other vendors not really much more from my research and experience. Now if you are well connected and source farm direct or similarly, obviously these prices will look crazy high. I don’t have that luxury, I have not found that type of connection. If I could, I would.
All-in-all I think Donny Boy gets a bad rap for his excessive delivery and exaggerations. His tea doesn’t need the hype in my opinion, it’s pretty solid overall.
PS @Bok is usually a good voice of reason, cutting through the noise.
Last edited by TeaTotaling on Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
@Jeanbb
interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm just puzzled with one thing you have mentioned. If you would be so kind and explain it to me.
"a tea is harvested and pressed in 2019 from trees that are 300 years old is a young gushu. New production, old trees. "
So when that young becomes old , and when that happens , will he have to re-name and re-pack the tea to the Old Gushu label?
please no flames, I'm just asking.
You've probably read my posts in this thread and I just want to add to all that. MLF is not only the one vendor with the "claim" issue ( just happened they are the most visible on internet ...literally...YT ).
I have learned to ignore this because I realized that people who can distinguish tea from 100-300-500 years old tea trees , real Bing Dao from Nan Po , or 5-10-20 years old puerh dry / wet storage , .....etc. .... by blind tasting , already know exactly how and were to buy their tea anyway.
I understand that vendors who do not run such a over-claim marketing strategy are not happy with the unfair competition and I admit , I was also upset at the beginning , and probably even went emotional in some forums. But with some time , I have learned to understand ...not excuse , but understand it as not my problem but a problem of those vendors who got trapped by that Chinese marketing.
I do not mind to delete all my posts in this thread , because from my new perspective ( the way I see all this now ) , they are pointless anyway. But It would messed up bit with the thread since some people react on them.
Thanks for your understanding.
interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm just puzzled with one thing you have mentioned. If you would be so kind and explain it to me.
"a tea is harvested and pressed in 2019 from trees that are 300 years old is a young gushu. New production, old trees. "
So when that young becomes old , and when that happens , will he have to re-name and re-pack the tea to the Old Gushu label?
please no flames, I'm just asking.
You've probably read my posts in this thread and I just want to add to all that. MLF is not only the one vendor with the "claim" issue ( just happened they are the most visible on internet ...literally...YT ).
I have learned to ignore this because I realized that people who can distinguish tea from 100-300-500 years old tea trees , real Bing Dao from Nan Po , or 5-10-20 years old puerh dry / wet storage , .....etc. .... by blind tasting , already know exactly how and were to buy their tea anyway.
I understand that vendors who do not run such a over-claim marketing strategy are not happy with the unfair competition and I admit , I was also upset at the beginning , and probably even went emotional in some forums. But with some time , I have learned to understand ...not excuse , but understand it as not my problem but a problem of those vendors who got trapped by that Chinese marketing.
I do not mind to delete all my posts in this thread , because from my new perspective ( the way I see all this now ) , they are pointless anyway. But It would messed up bit with the thread since some people react on them.
Thanks for your understanding.
Last edited by aet on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Also, Chinese ancestry or relatives there does not suggest or equal any better access, knowledge, or skills in Chinese tea.
Otherwise does any German know how to build cars and cook pork knuckle? Does any Thai know how to do a massage? Etc. ... Certainly not. Dangerous and misleading assumptions.
Otherwise does any German know how to build cars and cook pork knuckle? Does any Thai know how to do a massage? Etc. ... Certainly not. Dangerous and misleading assumptions.
I also haven't had their teas so I cannot comment on the quality. However, the reason I haven't had them is the above. I remember a while ago seeing a video in which they recommended storing partly-used tea leaves wrapped in a cloth in the fridge, and some customers reported back that it had developed mold. I could never shake the impression that something is off - I might be wrong, but there are many other vendors so I never ended up ordering from them. Maybe I should do a tasting and review some day. I was just browsing their site now, I see an out of stock 200g cake of Bingdao from "500-800 year old trees" at ~$156, which is quite surprising for Bingdao gushu (regardless of the 500-800 year old claim). Maybe it's autumn tea? Anyway, these kinds of claims make me somewhat suspicious.chofmann wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:00 pmThis sums up my feelings on Mei Leaf pretty much perfectly. I haven't tried his teas, but I've seen enough incorrect information on his website and youtube to know that he is more hat than cattle.Atlas wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:43 amYou may be (and I suspect are) confusing "knowledge" with "details".
Having watched a few of his deep-dive videos and a couple of basics videos (though not for about a year):
- The enthusiasm and production values are excellent, and I can't really criticise him for his schtick just because I personally hate it.
- Many of his basic how-to videos provide, imho, excellent primers, and I think they provide a valuable service that no-one else is providing. They get people excited about tea, too, which is fantastic.
- Some of the details/theories he provides about tea, clays etc have the stink of "stuff he's been told but has never independently verified". Some of it doesn't scan given even cursory analysis (his explanation of yixing comes to mind, but as I say it's been a long while). The errors you can see make everything else suspect, if only because it makes him seem credulous.
- Newbies who can't spot the problems are generally taken in by the level of detail, because they can't vet anything and thus have to go on confidence and detail... and he has those in spades.
I can't comment personally on his teas, but that's because I've heard from people I trust who have had them that they do not live up to the expectations set by their prices. That doesn't mean you have to trust it, but it's silly to expect everyone you ask to respond with specific details of what they didn't like about particular teas in the context of a "is this vendor good?" thread.
Just one example - his Dong Ding oolong. While it is marketed as "Dong Ding", it is not actually Dong Ding. To his credit, he admits as much in the description / origin (it is Alishan), but in the process he makes false claims about Dong Ding leaves being inferior (this simply isn't true). I have had cheap Alishan roasted in order to make it look/taste more like Dong Ding. Some people love it. But even if it tastes like "good tea", it doesn't taste like Dong Ding. This is a nuanced issue that many entry level tea people don't understand (they want their tea to taste "good"), but more experienced tea drinkers can't stand (they want their tea to taste like something specific, neither "good" nor "bad").
Another example is his Hou Kui. Again, he starts off with false marketing, calling it "Monkey Picked Tea" and "Monkey King". Both of these are false, and he admits as much in the description, but he falsely applies a legend that originated in Anxi about Tie Guan Yin to Hou Kui. This is a story he was probably told by some tea seller in China, and he went with it. Furthermore, while I again admit I have not tried his teas, the picture of the Hou Kui leaves look extremely cheap. Many vendors sell Hou Kui that looks like this, and it is almost always very poor quality. I had a sample from a different vendor and thought it was awful... when I had my mom try it (who happened to be visiting at the time), she gagged.
Or the fact that his matcha he claims is top quality and that it was picked May 2019 --> But any good farmer worth their salt wouldn't even sell their Spring 2019 matcha yet, because it is best to let the tencha rest for 3-6 months before grinding it down.
@Jeanbb a few hundred bucks from the above mentioned doesn’t add up to much to be honest(for Western accessible teas). Nothing wrong with that, not everyone has vast sums to spend on tea and good tea is expensive.
To know what’s bad, one needs to know what’s good. So before insulting at random, I’d tread more carefully.
I’d order some teas from the likes as Tillerman, Teamasters, Taiwan tea crafts, the Jade leaf for example and compare that to ML. Can’t speak for Chinese teas as I rarely drink them and don’t know any vendors.
To know what’s bad, one needs to know what’s good. So before insulting at random, I’d tread more carefully.
I’d order some teas from the likes as Tillerman, Teamasters, Taiwan tea crafts, the Jade leaf for example and compare that to ML. Can’t speak for Chinese teas as I rarely drink them and don’t know any vendors.
On a different vendor, Wistaria tea house in Taipei, who also claimed that some of their teas are from 400-1000 years of age, should I be suspicious of their claim too? It only cost around $188 per 357 gm for their TaiHe 2006 cake. I read that Mr. Chow Yu is a respectable and honorable man. Anyway, I just want to know what people think about them. I just learned about them 2 month ago from a tea friend at work. Their teas tasted good to me and the girls working there are very nice so I bought a few cakes. Sorry in advance since this has nothing to do with Mei Leafsteanze wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:31 pmI also haven't had their teas so I cannot comment on the quality. However, the reason I haven't had them is the above. I remember a while ago seeing a video in which they recommended storing partly-used tea leaves wrapped in a cloth in the fridge, and some customers reported back that it had developed mold. I could never shake the impression that something is off - I might be wrong, but there are many other vendors so I never ended up ordering from them. Maybe I should do a tasting and review some day. I was just browsing their site now, I see an out of stock 200g cake of Bingdao from "500-800 year old trees" at ~$156, which is quite surprising for Bingdao gushu (regardless of the 500-800 year old claim). Maybe it's autumn tea? Anyway, these kinds of claims make me somewhat suspicious.chofmann wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:00 pmThis sums up my feelings on Mei Leaf pretty much perfectly. I haven't tried his teas, but I've seen enough incorrect information on his website and youtube to know that he is more hat than cattle.Atlas wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:43 am
You may be (and I suspect are) confusing "knowledge" with "details".
Having watched a few of his deep-dive videos and a couple of basics videos (though not for about a year):
- The enthusiasm and production values are excellent, and I can't really criticise him for his schtick just because I personally hate it.
- Many of his basic how-to videos provide, imho, excellent primers, and I think they provide a valuable service that no-one else is providing. They get people excited about tea, too, which is fantastic.
- Some of the details/theories he provides about tea, clays etc have the stink of "stuff he's been told but has never independently verified". Some of it doesn't scan given even cursory analysis (his explanation of yixing comes to mind, but as I say it's been a long while). The errors you can see make everything else suspect, if only because it makes him seem credulous.
- Newbies who can't spot the problems are generally taken in by the level of detail, because they can't vet anything and thus have to go on confidence and detail... and he has those in spades.
I can't comment personally on his teas, but that's because I've heard from people I trust who have had them that they do not live up to the expectations set by their prices. That doesn't mean you have to trust it, but it's silly to expect everyone you ask to respond with specific details of what they didn't like about particular teas in the context of a "is this vendor good?" thread.
Just one example - his Dong Ding oolong. While it is marketed as "Dong Ding", it is not actually Dong Ding. To his credit, he admits as much in the description / origin (it is Alishan), but in the process he makes false claims about Dong Ding leaves being inferior (this simply isn't true). I have had cheap Alishan roasted in order to make it look/taste more like Dong Ding. Some people love it. But even if it tastes like "good tea", it doesn't taste like Dong Ding. This is a nuanced issue that many entry level tea people don't understand (they want their tea to taste "good"), but more experienced tea drinkers can't stand (they want their tea to taste like something specific, neither "good" nor "bad").
Another example is his Hou Kui. Again, he starts off with false marketing, calling it "Monkey Picked Tea" and "Monkey King". Both of these are false, and he admits as much in the description, but he falsely applies a legend that originated in Anxi about Tie Guan Yin to Hou Kui. This is a story he was probably told by some tea seller in China, and he went with it. Furthermore, while I again admit I have not tried his teas, the picture of the Hou Kui leaves look extremely cheap. Many vendors sell Hou Kui that looks like this, and it is almost always very poor quality. I had a sample from a different vendor and thought it was awful... when I had my mom try it (who happened to be visiting at the time), she gagged.
Or the fact that his matcha he claims is top quality and that it was picked May 2019 --> But any good farmer worth their salt wouldn't even sell their Spring 2019 matcha yet, because it is best to let the tencha rest for 3-6 months before grinding it down.
https://www.wistariateahouse.com/mainss ... 24&lang=en
Tea tree age doesn’t automatically mean very good tea. I’ve seen some images of very old, but sad and unhealthy looking Puerh trees. The friend who went there is in agricultural science and said the earth around those trees did not look healthy and nutritious to him.
Wisteria has a good reputation and I don’t think they would put out incorrect information. They have too much to loose. And also do rely quite a bit on the foreign tourist business. The locals go elsewhere.
I have not had a very good impression of their teas after a couple of visits. Ok but nothing extraordinary. Maybe the teas that you can only preorder in the shop are better...
Wisteria has a good reputation and I don’t think they would put out incorrect information. They have too much to loose. And also do rely quite a bit on the foreign tourist business. The locals go elsewhere.
I have not had a very good impression of their teas after a couple of visits. Ok but nothing extraordinary. Maybe the teas that you can only preorder in the shop are better...
The range given is wide, so if there is at least one 1000 year old tree among thousands of 400 year old trees it's still a valid claimvuanguyen wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:39 am
On a different vendor, Wistaria tea house in Taipei, who also claimed that some of their teas are from 400-1000 years of age, should I be suspicious of their claim too? It only cost around $188 per 357 gm for their TaiHe 2006 cake. I read that Mr. Chow Yu is a respectable and honorable man. Anyway, I just want to know what people think about them. I just learned about them 2 month ago from a tea friend at work. Their teas tasted good to me and the girls working there are very nice so I bought a few cakes. Sorry in advance since this has nothing to do with Mei Leaf
https://www.wistariateahouse.com/mainss ... 24&lang=en
In any case, I have generally been a big fan of their Yiwu. Taste and energy are consistent. Tai He 2006 is cheaper because the tea is not quite the same as their earlier version. Their original 2004 version is going for $1200 for a 357g cake now.
If you like ML then drink away. No one should have to drink tea they don't like. Only you know which ones you enjoy. There is marketing everywhere and lots of hype and exaggeration on lots of teas. The real test is in your cup. I will echo Bok, sample and compare. This will allow you to narrow in on what you like.
Hi @Jeanbb, welcome to the forum. What an amazingly detailed first post, I look forward to seeing your other contributions on this forum in the future.
In regards to your comment that I've never had Mei Leaf teas, here is one of my receipts from right before they rebranded. I stand by the comments I've made in this thread.
Though I do have to say that I'm in a place in my life now where I wouldn't publicly critique a tea or vendor due to prior bad experiences with some of the overly zealous personalities within the tea community. In fact, all I feel compelled to do nowadays is leave tasting notes and lurk within other threads. But since my older post is right on the front page and is being quoted... I'll just leave this here.
In regards to your comment that I've never had Mei Leaf teas, here is one of my receipts from right before they rebranded. I stand by the comments I've made in this thread.
Though I do have to say that I'm in a place in my life now where I wouldn't publicly critique a tea or vendor due to prior bad experiences with some of the overly zealous personalities within the tea community. In fact, all I feel compelled to do nowadays is leave tasting notes and lurk within other threads. But since my older post is right on the front page and is being quoted... I'll just leave this here.
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In puer, region of origin is an important factor to determine the price. Bingdao is one of the most expensive regions. Wistaria's Taihe is not claimed to be from Bingdao. In addition, that Taihe was pressed in 2006 when the prices of maocha were lower. Wistaria has not increased prices much over the years. Their puer teas are good - I actually have that 2006 Taihe cake (and I have tried the 2004 and 2005). The bottom line is: $188 per 357g for gushu from somwhere unspecified that was pressed in 2006 from an outfit that's known to not markup much as tea ages is plausible. $156 per 200g for *Bingdao* gushu pressed in 2018 considering the prices of maocha is unlikely. Unless as mentioned earlier it's Fall material (they do not specify it is Spring material so that would be fair game).vuanguyen wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:39 am
On a different vendor, Wistaria tea house in Taipei, who also claimed that some of their teas are from 400-1000 years of age, should I be suspicious of their claim too? It only cost around $188 per 357 gm for their TaiHe 2006 cake. I read that Mr. Chow Yu is a respectable and honorable man. Anyway, I just want to know what people think about them. I just learned about them 2 month ago from a tea friend at work. Their teas tasted good to me and the girls working there are very nice so I bought a few cakes. Sorry in advance since this has nothing to do with Mei Leaf
https://www.wistariateahouse.com/mainss ... 24&lang=en
As @Bok said, age of the trees is just one of many factors, not all tea from old trees is good.