Aged White Tea

Withered tea
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debunix
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Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:51 pm

Interesting, particularly how he distinguishes flavor profiles to be expected when infused hot vs cold
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hopeofdawn
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Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:21 pm

I actually just spent a good chunk of a vacation weekend at a new (to me) teashop in Portland, OR--Qi's Fine Teas (https://qifineteas.com/). They specialize in phoenix mountain teas and puerh. And despite not being a puerh drinker, I actually ended up taking home some of their Moon Light Beauty Raw puerh. The puerh is actually made out of white tea leaf--loose-piled for aging, rather than compressed--and had a very unique taste, with notes of melon and a lovely fragrance. According to the shop owner, as the tea ages, the melon notes and fragrance will gradually disappear, but the flavor will deepen and become more puerh-like. They also had a 12 year old compressed white that was also very nice, (tho I didn't bring any home).

As a side note, I definitely recommend the shop to anyone in the Portland area--Ivy and James know their stuff, and have a great selection of Jingdezhen teawares as well. Plus James is a chef and organic chemist, and is more than happy to teach anyone and everyone more about the chemistry of tea and what happens to it as it ages!

Also, an unconventional recommendation but the best white tea I've ever tasted, bar none, is the White Antlers tea from Malawi. It's actually made out of the tender spring stems of the plant, before it begins to leaf, and it is AMAZING. Sadly, it is also hard to obtain--the only consistent online vendor I've found that has it is What-cha Teas (https://what-cha.com/collections/white- ... 1694041143)
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debunix
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Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:07 pm

Given the tastiness of Kukicha, I suppose it shouldn't be suprising that other tea stems can be quite tasty too!

Too much tea in the chest to order from WhatCha right now, but bookmarked for future adventuring.
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wave_code
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Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:08 am

I love stem/twig teas - this one sounds really interesting. do you find you need to use a lot more volume for brewing though?

I have some loose sun dried white tea I bought about 3 years ago and have inadvertently aged a bit by just not drinking it much and forgetting the second bag of it in storage. its gotten a lot better to my taste with some more nice medicinal notes but also more raw honey flavor now after sitting around for a while so its making me aged white curious... of course there seems to be plenty of faked age claims like you would find with puerh but maybe less so since its a smaller lower price market? also unless you want significantly old which seems harder to source from western vendors the prices don't seem so bad - someone can lie to me about a couple extra years for $30, not for $130 :lol: I'd like to try one or two more whites that were specifically aged for 5+ years to see if its a thing where I might want to pick up cakes or loose for aging. I can see how loose would be better than pressed if the aging is occurring more with slow oxidation rather than micro-organisms and fermentation. A costly affair in terms of space though - one bag of the sun dried white I have is 50g, if I don't want to crush and break the leaves its almost as big as two typical shu bricks.
TeaZero
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Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:25 am

I've always purchased my white tea cakes from Teasenz, they never disappoint. I can recommend their silver needle white tea cake and moonlight white. They also have a breakable waffle white tea cake too, but that one I only recommend if you like a very light and subtle white tea.
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hopeofdawn
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:00 am

wave_code wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:08 am
I love stem/twig teas - this one sounds really interesting. do you find you need to use a lot more volume for brewing though?
For White Antlers, I did not--in my experience there's something about stem tea that gives a lot of flavor without needing a lot of volume. And it gives a *lot* of brews. As I recall, I would typically get at least 5-6 solid brews out of it, just by covering the bottom of my pot with tea (not going full gonfu by filling or even half-filling it), and a few more brews of weaker-but-still-pleasant tea even after that.

Regarding aged whites--It seems like almost every Chinese tea vendor I've run into has at least a 2-3 year old white on offer these days. Whether you can trust their word is of course always the thing, though given the difference in taste between fresh white tea and aged, I'm not sure why they would bother to lie about something like that, since the experienced customer is going to be able to tell.
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Balthazar
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:17 am

wave_code wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:08 am
I have some loose sun dried white tea I bought about 3 years ago and have inadvertently aged a bit by just not drinking it much and forgetting the second bag of it in storage. its gotten a lot better to my taste with some more nice medicinal notes but also more raw honey flavor now after sitting around for a while so its making me aged white curious...
Anecdotal similar experience here. This Christmas I revisited a 2010 Fuding white tea cake that we gifted to my mom in 2014 or so. It was an alright tea back then, but nothing much to write home about. After 6+ years of cupboard storage it has improved a lot. No medicinal notes on this one, but a very well balanced taste of honey and berries that I do not recall from earlier tastings. (The body of the tea, however, seems to have remained unchanged.)

I've never been much of a white tea drinker, but this experience definitely piqued my interest.
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wave_code
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:59 am

I think i'll take a chance on a few cheapo cakes and see how it goes, and if I'm liking things get some better quality cakes from some different vendors.

I think part of what grabs me is that aged white, whether it started as some sort of marketing thing or not, to me fulfill the potential promise of Puerh that I never get. Yes, its very different and so is the 'aging' process, but I find every time I try sheng, even higher quality or more aged sheng, I'm let down or wish I had drank something else and I find it just generally doesn't agree with me. I've kinda thrown in the hat on sheng and I'm find with it not being my tea the way liu bao is - its too expensive anyway and I'm happy drinking shu ;) . but the aging white tea I have which is from Yunnan has what I want out of sheng without the negatives- some medicinal notes, honey or light molasses, elements of floral or citrus flavors, no bitterness or possibility of overbrewing, a nice uplifting feeling without feeling like im spinning out of control or like my stomach is going to implode. the fact that you can be so un-fussy about its storage is also a big plus to me.
Ethan Kurland
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm

wave_code wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:59 am
I think i'll take a chance on a few cheapo cakes and see how it goes, and if I'm liking things get some better quality cakes from some different vendors.

I think part of what grabs me is that aged white, whether it started as some sort of marketing thing or not, to me fulfill the potential promise of Puerh that I never get... .
I am glad that you put your decision-making in public view. I applaud you leaving the path that was not finding you anything to be happy about.

I have noted that drinkers of pu-erh are disappointed much more often than they are satisfied. Yet, most of them continue to invest time, $, & space in their homes in the quest for pu-erh nirvana.

Long, long ago, I doubted that it made sense for cigar smokers to age fairly expensive cigars of slightly than better than average quality for 10 years or so before smoking them. Rather than explain how ignorant I was, a few members of the forum in which I participated, sent me some cigars that they had successfully aged to become truly superior smokes. I was converted to their way of thinking & joined them in their ways (although I aged cigars that wouid only take a few years to improve greatly). Feeling proud & wise, I soon had my comeuppance because I needed to stop smoking. Thus, I suspect that even if a lot of the pu-erh that is stored etc. is okay in the future, most of it won't be used for one reason or another.

(I know, I drink & sell aged tea, but I buy it that way already knowing it is good.)

Cheers
faj
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:11 pm

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm
I have noted that drinkers of pu-erh are disappointed much more often than they are satisfied. Yet, most of them continue to invest time, $, & space in their homes in the quest for pu-erh nirvana.
It's the journey that counts rather than the destination, I guess...

I am not into pu-erh, but my experience with sencha echoes this. However, exploring pu-erh has a time (age) dimension that sencha does not have, and while I am hopeful my sencha exploration is leading me to what I call "better average enjoyment" in a reasonable timeframe, I feel with pu-erh I would get lost.

I have tried a limited number of sheng pu-erh teas between a couple years old to almost 20. I have really liked none of them. I feel I would prefer older teas, but finding the needle in the haystack seems daunting and expensive for someone with no tea friends with stashes and no connections. And if, as I suspect, I would much prefer old teas, the needle in the haystack seems like it will be prohibitively expensive even if I find it.

I am not getting this feeling with liu bao. Though I only have tried a handful, I like them all. There are better ones than those I have tried out there, but drinking these does not feel like a rite of passage on the way to stuff I like.
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Feeling proud & wise, I soon had my comeuppance because I needed to stop smoking.
You, sir, seem like a well of life experiences you tell in a personal style that has a peculiar, concise and effective rhythm to it, with humor and shadows tightly intertwined. In a sense, I hope these stories are made up, because if they are you can keep on coming up with new ones...
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Thus, I suspect that even if a lot of the pu-erh that is stored etc. is okay in the future, most of it won't be used for one reason or another.
I guess, to a collector, an aged tea stash has to be seen as something to be passed on to someone else at some point who will either keep on enriching with younger stuff while drinking what has gained in maturity... or sell.
Ethan Kurland
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:15 pm

faj, I agree people enjoy the journey & plan to pass on the fruits of their journey. Unfortunately, the "precious" possessions that get passed to inheritors get lost, destroyed, given to the wrong people, etc. too often. Fortunately, the deceased don't see those messes. Also fortunately no one can rain on their parades when collectors are alive, as their quest is too strong & driven by personal forces within each of them.

My stories are true, but I fit them fictionally into a narrative of a life that has had more boredom than adventure by far. The meagre amount of highlights allows me not to forget almost every single one. Also with age a pleasant confusion helps me feel that I have experienced more than I have. E.g., I have only been scuba-diving 7 times, but now things I have seen in films of fish & coral in seas I have not been to, are mixed with my real memories.

Cheers
butarbakes
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Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:50 pm

I feel like I'm the odd one out....
I prefer Yunnan whites over Fujian white. I feel Yunnan whites are more dynamic and complex, and often I find Fujian too "green" tasting.
I personally brew mine in porcelain & not clay with slightly cooler than boiling water (85-90C). My favorite whites have been:

https://www.sazentea.com/en/products/p8 ... nzhen.html
https://www.sazentea.com/en/products/p5 ... -tree.html
https://www.bluewillowtea.com/collectio ... udan-cakes
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Balthazar
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Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:46 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm
I have noted that drinkers of pu-erh are disappointed much more often than they are satisfied. Yet, most of them continue to invest time, $, & space in their homes in the quest for pu-erh nirvana.
Without knowing for sure which drinkers you are thinking about, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that (a geographical) sample bias probably plays a role here. Also, there are plenty of drinkers of puer that are not storers of puer or do not have a more elaborate storage set up for it than for any of the other teas they consume. (Although fear of rising prices and shrinking supplies seem to have contributed to a storage frenzy in later years, as much if not more than the dream of creating the perfect storage system in one's own home.)

And then there's the crazy "young sheng" sect, who holds that puer nirvana is to be found in the here and now through the strange mental states and intense stomach cramps this stuff can produce :D
Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm
I was converted to their way of thinking & joined them in their ways (although I aged cigars that wouid only take a few years to improve greatly). Feeling proud & wise, I soon had my comeuppance because I needed to stop smoking. Thus, I suspect that even if a lot of the pu-erh that is stored etc. is okay in the future, most of it won't be used for one reason or another.
I can partially relate to this, as a person who used to be a big fan of single malts who stopped drinking (well, save for very special occasions) when I discovered how even a single dram hours before bedtime would mess with my sleep. By no means did I have a huge collection, but I did have some very nice and unopened bottles that I no longer have any use for (some have been gifted, a few remain in my possession but will be gifted at appropriate times in the future).

Never really felt sad about it, though, perhaps I was less attached than I had imagined.
faj wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:11 pm
I have tried a limited number of sheng pu-erh teas between a couple years old to almost 20. I have really liked none of them. I feel I would prefer older teas, but finding the needle in the haystack seems daunting and expensive for someone with no tea friends with stashes and no connections. And if, as I suspect, I would much prefer old teas, the needle in the haystack seems like it will be prohibitively expensive even if I find it.
Yep, I think the problem is going to be more one of finding the barn full of cash rather than the needle in the haystack (i.e. if you have millions to spend, I don't think you're going to have a hard time finding old sheng you like even without great connections (e.g. check out Sunsing's selection))
faj
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Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:20 am

Balthazar wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:46 am
(Although fear of rising prices and shrinking supplies seem to have contributed to a storage frenzy in later years, as much if not more than the dream of creating the perfect storage system in one's own home.)
Macroeconomic conditions in the world (rising wealth concentration, essentially, which is happening everywhere) have fed increases in prices for all items whose economic value is derived from appreciation and status (art, wine, designer clothes...), as well as speculative investment in real estate and stocksinvestments with low or. People store teas because they fear prices will rise, and prices rise because storage creates a somewhat artificial demand. As with any bubble, if you were in early you get to benefit (make money or enjoy affordable, great tea), but getting in on the action late in the game as an outsider is a good way to get your fingers burnt. Bitcoin, 2000's tech stocks, pre-2008 USA real estate... same difference.
Balthazar wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:46 am
Yep, I think the problem is going to be more one of finding the barn full of cash rather than the needle in the haystack (i.e. if you have millions to spend, I don't think you're going to have a hard time finding old sheng you like even without great connections (e.g. check out Sunsing's selection))
I will try "barn full of cash" in Google Maps, just in case. If I find that cash, though, it might turn out to be nice-house-money, travel-money, retirement-money or, you know, teas-other-than-pu'er-money...
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Bok
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Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:40 am

Balthazar wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:46 am

And then there's the crazy "young sheng" sect, who holds that puer nirvana is to be found in the here and now through the strange mental states and intense stomach cramps this stuff can produce :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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