"Hybrid" green/white

Withered tea
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absence
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Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:54 am

I've seen some vendors sell "white" teas that look and taste more like green tea. Some of them are described as in-between, like this Jade Needle from Yunnan Sourcing, and another vendor admitted that their "white" (but very green-tasting) tea had undergone fixation (kill-green). I thought white tea was just withered and dried? Maybe that's why it's called in-between, but wouldn't fixating just make it a type of green tea?
John_B
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Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:44 pm

This is a normal type of question to have related to this processing range, and it comes up in a few different kinds of examples. I've tried plenty of Vietnamese teas that aren't clearly any one thing in style, and per input from a knowledgeable tea enthusiast friend there sometimes there really is no answer. Some are in between. Darjeeling first flush white versions seem comparable; these must not go through a heating step, and don't seem green, but they don't exactly seem like typical white tea either, or remotely close to black tea.

The heating step (fixation, called here, or sha qing, kill green) seems the crux. Oxidation level varies a lot in white teas, depending on whether they were bruised or not during harvesting, and on how humid conditions are, how fast they dry. But then even relatively quickly dried white teas don't seem that close to green teas; the aspects and character isn't the same. If I knew more about standard tea processing and variations I could offer more explanation, but as things stand I'm not really saying much here. A comment on a good video reference might shed some light on a potential middle ground, related to William of Farmerleaf talking about making white tea:



"Some white tea processing techinques involve a final drying with hot air, it will give a different taste from a purely shade-dried white tea. It can be useful if the air is too wet to dry the leaves in a short timespan by simple diffusion."
absence
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Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:48 pm

John_B wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:44 pm
The heating step (fixation, called here, or sha qing, kill green) seems the crux.
The guy in the video seems to think so as well, but that's the thing: I've seen "white" tea that has undergone both kill-green and rolling, which AFAIK is how green tea is produced. The result is indeed very similar to green tea, much more so than the white Darjeelings (I don't know how they're produced, but I find them closer to "black" first flush, so there's probably withering). I don't know how Vietnamese teas compare.

I wonder if anyone would notice the alleged whiteness of these Chinese hybrids if they were just sold as green tea. Maybe there's a marketing advantage to label them as white.
John_B
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Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:36 pm

It seems worthwhile to go back to basic differences between types, to sort out what is probably going on.

According to this tea processing chart all tea types are withered; this step only relates to the teas spending any time prior to processing is started: https://teaepicure.com/tea-processing-chart/

Rolling and spending time oxidizing after this step is what distinguishes black tea, along with fixing (heating) for some tea types, stopping the oxidation process where it left off at that time. White tea doesn't use any rolling or fixing step, typically, but it would still oxidize, just less since the bruising of the leaves allows for air contact with internal compounds. The bruising (rolling) speeds up an oxidation transition that would happen anyway without that, just to a lesser extent.

A white tea that underwent both rolling and kill-green (fixing, heating, sha qing) wouldn't be a white tea, according to this set of definitions. It's hard to say what it would be; per that chart an oolong that didn't oxidize for long.

The point about type identification relating to marketing is surely part of the story, along with some processing blurring the lines. This same producer sells two different Darjeeling first flush teas as a white version and a version without a type identifier, which don't seem so different:

https://gopaldharaindia.com/shop-full-w ... white-tea/

https://gopaldharaindia.com/shop-full-w ... flush-tea/

Their input about type is this: It should not be mistaken as a white tea as it has been oxidized but all by hand without any machinery works involved. It is a hand rolled and shuffled tea and it has been oxidized several times in the night very gently.

Back to that processing chart (which isn't intended as a last word, even as presented on that page) if it was only dried it would be considered a black tea, but if it was heated to fix the tea it would be an oolong. That white tea could be a true white, just left to dry, except for a comment that describes it as otherwise on that page: Fermentation : Minimal oxidized Post rolling
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pedant
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Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:25 am

there's also the issue of intent. one could say that if a maker intends to make a white tea and thinks it tastes like a white tea, then the tea could be called a white tea even if he didn't follow the usual recipe. maybe that intent should be respected to some extent.

a lot of foods are like that.
absence
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:36 am

John_B wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:36 pm
Back to that processing chart (which isn't intended as a last word, even as presented on that page)
I agree, some classic green teas like biluochun are rolled, but according to the chart it wouldn't be a green tea. I guess it's not trivial to fit all the variations of tea processing into simple groups.
pedant wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:25 am
one could say that if a maker intends to make a white tea and thinks it tastes like a white tea, then the tea could be called a white tea even if he didn't follow the usual recipe.
Intent could certainly play a role, but in this case the "white" tea tastes like green tea, so it's difficult to know what the intent is. We also don't know if it's the producer or the vendor who decided to call it white.
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aet
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:47 pm

absence wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:54 am
another vendor admitted that their "white" (but very green-tasting) tea had undergone fixation (kill-green). I thought white tea was just withered and dried? Maybe that's why it's called in-between, but wouldn't fixating just make it a type of green tea?
the temperature and time applied in the step of "kill green" will also determine if it's puerh processing or green processing. White tea should dry naturally in shade but in some bad weather conditions ( rainy season ) they speed up the drying artificially in low temp. heat. There is a tea from white tea tree ( as locals call it there like that ) and they process it by traditional way kill green as puerh tea. So technically that's a white puerh tea. It has a taste of white tea ( sweet & fruity ) but with combination of front bitterness ( some astringency if young tree ) followed with huigan.

There are many variables between each steps of processing and nowadays ( in such a competitive tea market ) many production companies , even tea farmers are experimenting or adjusting to customer ( market demand ) needs. Like new puerh concept of processing. High temp kill green , which brings up the aroma and sweetness , longer withering to suppress the bitterness with astringency which creates rather green or oolong taste of tea ( some even apply the yao qing ) , so after few years it's getting old , not aging. But market demands for Now puerh drinkers of Gushu hype are playing down into this.
Puerh has been promoted a lot and many new puerh tea drinkers can't stand the bitterness and astringency, yet don't want to wait for tea to age. That also generates the "fake aged teas" ...but that's other topic, I believe.
Years ago I was in Mengku and tea vendor had a Shai Hong ( sun dried ) Ye Sheng ( wild ) Hong Cha ( red /black tea ), I could taste the notes of that extended oxidation part . Very sweet , nice. He was selling it like Wild Sheng Puerh with 5k CNY price tag . That was like 5 y ago ;)))
Month ago I was in pressing company getting done our stuff and noticed some very black cakes getting dried there . Boss told me it's a Wild Sheng puerh and invited me to try some ( loose bits left from pressing ) ...It was just a regular Feng Qing Ye Sheng hong ( wild black tea ) from small arbors ;-DDD I just couldn't stop laughing.

So I agree with you..it is complicated ;-D
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Bok
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:10 pm

Guess it boils down to this: Do not give a rat’s ass what any given tea is called, just go by if you like it or not!
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