Yancha issues

Semi-oxidized tea
Noonie
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Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:51 am

I’ve read many times over the years that if you live in the west you’re not likely getting good to great tea. Have read this for specific varietals, but Inwould ask a reverse question - what teas accessible to the west are above average quality? Easy for folks to say what’s not good in the west, so pls share what is!

I’ve had very good sencha and gyukuro from Japanese vendors, but that’s my taste experience.

Thanks!
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Bok
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Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:48 am

Not sure if there are any above average... maybe good but not above average.
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Bok
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Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:51 am

Think about it this way: could you get above average cheese in Asia? Most likely not and if then for a multitude of the normal retail price.
Noonie
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Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:16 am

I thought when vendors in the East (Thes Du Japon, O-Cha or MaikoTea for example...more of a Japanese green tea drinker) buy tea and ship internationally that the tea is the same as if I went into their shop in the East to buy it? Hence my question as to what types of tea shipped from the East are as good as buying local (with a price bump of course).

I am naieve 😔
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There is no self
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Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:11 pm

Noonie wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:16 am
I thought when vendors in the East (Thes Du Japon, O-Cha or MaikoTea for example...more of a Japanese green tea drinker) buy tea and ship internationally that the tea is the same as if I went into their shop in the East to buy it? Hence my question as to what types of tea shipped from the East are as good as buying local (with a price bump of course).

I am naieve 😔
I think what Bok is saying is that really good tea disappears locally before it even has a chance to be bought for shipping.
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octopus
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Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:59 pm

Noonie wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:51 am
what teas accessible to the west are above average quality? Easy for folks to say what’s not good in the west
yes, sounds like common but superficial remarks. I can only imagine anyone saying that has either 1) never lived in PRC or other and therefore has no idea what "average quality" is for some teas there or 2) only buys tea in asia and therefore has no idea what is available worldwide or 3) doesn't know where to buy tea or doesn't have the money to pay for it or the experience to recognize if what is drinking is special and how special it is.

I am biased because i lived in PRC since few years, drink too much tea and sell tea i am passionate about that I think is above any averages i can think of. I also have few friends and some not friends who sell other quite good teas worldwide but ofc biased too.

If you are really serious i suggest to do a lot of blind tastings with teas from different sources and focus on the flavors rather than the stories or prices attached to it. this is true in any country you buy tea in. trust yourself and the tea in the cup and one day things will make sense.
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Victoria
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Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:34 am

octopus wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:59 pm
Noonie wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:51 am
what teas accessible to the west are above average quality? Easy for folks to say what’s not good in the west
yes, sounds like common but superficial remarks. I can only imagine anyone saying that has either 1) never lived in PRC or other and therefore has no idea what "average quality" is for some teas there or 2) only buys tea in asia and therefore has no idea what is available worldwide or 3) doesn't know where to buy tea or doesn't have the money to pay for it or the experience to recognize if what is drinking is special and how special it is.
I am biased because i lived in PRC since few years, drink too much tea and sell tea i am passionate about that I think is above any averages i can think of. I also have few friends and some not friends who sell other quite good teas worldwide but ofc biased too.
If you are really serious i suggest to do a lot of blind tastings with teas from different sources and focus on the flavors rather than the stories or prices attached to it. this is true in any country you buy tea in. trust yourself and the tea in the cup and one day things will make sense.
Thank you, these comments really resonate with me. I have been fortunate to have been introduced to very special yancha while living in Los Angeles. Generous friends, sharing special teas, from reputable sources. Sample as much as you can from good sources and you will know what’s what. Of course price can be a consideration and a limitation, but high quality yancha is within reach, here are a few examples;

Lazy Cat Tea: Daoshuikeng Rougui 2017 (Zhengyan)

Wuyi Origin; LCSX (LaoCongShuiXian)

Essence of Tea: 2014 Half Handmade Rou Gui

The Tea: 2017 Zhengyan Lian Hua Feng Shui Xian

Tea Hong; Cassia Extraordinaire 2016, Rou Gui cultivar

2088 Tea: 2015 Wu Yuan Jian Ban Tian Yao Handmade

& no longer available but a yancha I will not forget, my first love with what yancha could be;
Origin Tea: 2004 Wuyi Hui Yuan Nei GuiDong (Feng Fe Keng) Tie LuoHan *** wow
Noonie
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Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:33 am

Thanks for the responses.

I posed my question under this yancha topic because this is where the point came up about tea accessibility, however, I’ve never really sampled a lot of yancha over the years. But I will order from the vendors mentioned above next time I want some Yancha.

As I mentioned above I do drink a lot of Japanese green tea (10+ years ordering from vendors local and in Japan). I’ve had below average teas all the way to “wow, I didn’t know sencha or gyokuro can taste that amazing”. And I’ve paid $20/100g and had rubbish but have also had the wow moments (that I posted about in another forum and other forum members concurred). Which is to say I’m really happy with most of my tea purchases these days, but I do look forward to traveling East and further exploring tea culture and sampling as good as there is to offer (that I can afford!). Cheers 🍻
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ShuShu
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Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:18 pm

Bok wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:51 am
Think about it this way: could you get above average cheese in Asia? Most likely not and if then for a multitude of the normal retail price.
I suspect that this might be true about Taiwan but not about China. There are terrific teas -- way above average-- that are available to the west. One just needs to look, taste, and ask. I would even say that the average western tea drinker drinks better teas than the average Chinese. As a matter of fact, I would even say that being in China can make getting good tea in some respect even more complicated, as the market is inflated with crap and there are so few you can trust or rely on. All this without even mentioning people's lack of appreciation for good teas.

@Noonie
chofmann
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Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:00 pm

ShuShu wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:18 pm
Bok wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:51 am
Think about it this way: could you get above average cheese in Asia? Most likely not and if then for a multitude of the normal retail price.
I suspect that this might be true about Taiwan but not about China. There are terrific teas -- way above average-- that are available to the west. One just needs to look, taste, and ask. I would even say that the average western tea drinker drinks better teas than the average Chinese. As a matter of fact, I would even say that being in China can make getting good tea in some respect even more complicated, as the market is inflated with crap and there are so few you can trust or rely on. All this without even mentioning people's lack of appreciation for good teas.

Noonie
Probably not the average western tea drinker... but for sure the average western tea drinker who is a member of TeaForum :)

I am of the personal belief that very high quality tea can be obtained in the West, for similar prices as it can be obtained in Asia, but you have to know where to look. There are some fantastic vendors sourcing and bringing it to the West, but none of them have 'name brand' recognition the way a Harney & Sons, Tazo, or Stash do.
Noonie
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Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:10 pm

So it’s region specific...that makes sense, as I’ve done a lot of research and have enjoyed my Japanese green teas over the years.
theredbaron
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Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:54 pm

On the danger of disagreeing with some people here, but while the situation regarding availability of good tea in the west has tremendously improved over the past 20 something years, especially through the internet - top quality teas are not available. They are also not easy to find in Asia, end usually only through tea circles. I have experience in buying tea both in the west and in Asia, from shops and over the net, and through private circles (where i got some of my best teas i have ever drunk). And i have been drinking and buying tea in many of the plantations especially in China, when i was there often in the early and mid 1990's.

When i began drinking Chinese and Japanese tea around 27 or 28 years ago, good Chinese tea simply was not available in the west. I got good Japanese tea from a lady who owned a shop and ordered herself from Japan. In those days very few people in the west even knew of how good Chinese tea even tasted, and that there even was something called Gong Fu Cha existing.

Nowadays good and OK teas are just one mouseclick away. But not top quality, regardless what vendors say in the promotions. To even be able to fully taste top quality teas it needs a lot of guidance by a tea master, and years of experience. While a lot more good tea is available, the demand for good and top quality tea has also increased tremendously in Asia itself. China's economic rise made it possible that 10s of millions of people can now afford good tea, who previously could not. Tea nowadays is a lot more expensive than it once was, and access to the best qualities is very limited. The first choice have vendors who have relations dating back decades, or even generations, and who sell primarily to the much better educated Asian market.

Especially with Yancha, where the area which grows good teas is very limited (in comparison to Pu Erh, for example, which has a muc larger growing area) the best teas will not see the western oriented market. Simple as that. Yancha is one of the most famous teas in China, and for many tea lovers the crown of Chinese tea art. We cannot expect to get some of the rarest and most loved teas offered in a market which is not educated enough (yet) to be able to appreciate those teas.
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Tillerman
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Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:27 pm

theredbaron wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:54 pm
On the danger of disagreeing with some people here, but while the situation regarding availability of good tea in the west has tremendously improved over the past 20 something years, especially through the internet - top quality teas are not available.
This is not the case for those of us who have spent the time building the guangxi needed to secure such tea - at least in Taiwan this is the case and I suspect in Wuyi as well.
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Kale
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Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:13 pm

Well, I disagree with much of what you say, but its pointless to argue with this all too common rhetoric that in my view is really misguided.
The simple truth is just that there are more people in Asia that are willing to pay $50/g than there are in the west. For this reason, its obvious that most of this kind of tea doesnt get to the west. If there were a lot of people in the west willing to pay these prices then these kinds of tea would have gotten to the west easily. With enough money and purchase power, you need very little connection to get to the top.
That said, there are exceptional teas in the west that at least my views are clearly of the very best, which the average Chinese will never see in his life...


theredbaron wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:54 pm
Especially with Yancha, where the area which grows good teas is very limited (in comparison to Pu Erh, for example, which has a muc larger growing area) the best teas will not see the western oriented market. Simple as that. Yancha is one of the most famous teas in China, and for many tea lovers the crown of Chinese tea art. We cannot expect to get some of the rarest and most loved teas offered in a market which is not educated enough (yet) to be able to appreciate those teas.
chofmann
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Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:38 pm

I think perhaps some of the confusion has to do with a lack of definition. We are discussing whether or not "top quality teas" are available in the West... but what are "top quality teas"? As an example, I once spoke with a Mao Feng farmer who had various grades of Mao Feng. We asked about his top grade, and he said that he could sell it to us, but he doubts we'd want it. It would have cost us $2 / gram (from the farmer, so we'd be selling it for more) for a Mao Feng. Some of his lower grade teas, while expensive, were far far cheaper (would cost us in the $0.30-$0.70 / gram range, depending on the grade).

We were surprised at this price, and asked if we could sample the top grade. We did so with the farmer. All of us preferred the 2nd highest grade (~$0.70 / gram), even the farmer.

So we asked him why the top grade is so expensive. He said that nobody buys that tea to drink. It is almost exclusively purchased by people looking to gift it, because every bud is perfectly shaped/sized. From a visual standpoint, the quality was top notch. But from a tasting standpoint, it was inferior to the 2nd grade tea.

So is that the tea we are talking about when we say "top quality teas"? Or does the 2nd highest grade count as well?

In the West, teas are rarely purchased exclusively for gifting (obviously we can gift people teas, but it has a different meaning). In the East this is a common practice - you gift somebody a tea specifically because of the price and the way it looks. Taste doesn't matter (or at least it is secondary or tertiary).

When I say that "top quality teas" can be found in the West, I am talking about teas that are good enough to win competitions, that are produced with the upmost care from farms that are in the proper location and cared for properly. Teas that the farmer will sell from anywhere from $0.50-$2.00 per gram. I am not talking about the hyper special teas that are sold for $10 / gram from the farm, and it is used as a gift for a politician or somebody else because every single leaf is hand picked both before and after processing to be the exact same size.

Those are not "top quality teas". Those are gift teas.
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