What makes a modern Da Hong Pao a Da Hong Pao?

Semi-oxidized tea
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Baisao
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Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:57 pm

Stevelaughs wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 am
Modern Da Hong Pao should possess a clear floral and mineral character along with the heavier roasted notes.
I had a DHP tonight that I had put away in 2007. It was fruity, as I expected it to be. The more an oolong is oxidized the fruitier it gets. I don’t know where the notion of DHP being floral to type comes from.

I believe that the famed mineral characteristics of yancha are marketing nonsense that has been passed on so often as to become gospel. I’ve heard people say that the terroir is shallow and rocky therefore the tea leaves will have a high mineral flavor. Yet, I’ve never detected this in any tea and it defies biology. Plants don’t contain more minerals because they grow in rocky soil. Plants maintain a balance to prevent dieback and other problems.

I concede that a mineral flavor might be in some yancha but it is more likely the result of roasting than terroir.
Andrew S
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Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:05 pm

Baisao wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:57 pm
I believe that he famed mineral characteristics of yancha are marketing nonsense that has been passed on so often as to become gospel. I’ve heard people say that the terroir is shallow and rocky therefore the tea leaves will have a high mineral flavor. Yet, I’ve never detected this in any tea and it defies biology. Plants don’t contain more minerals because they grow in rocky soil. Plants maintain a balance to prevent dieback and other problems.

I concede that a mineral flavor might be in some yancha but it is more likely the result of roasting than terroir.
My own feeling is that the word 'mineral', here and elsewhere, is another example of a shorthand description of something which is useful or convenient to those who know what they and others mean by it, and misleading or worse for those who don't, or who take it at face-value.

Winemakers and scientists keep saying that it is nonsense to suggest that minerals somehow seep from the rocks in different types of soil, then into the roots, and then up into the grapes to end up in your glass, yet wine drinkers will continue to describe how a Chablis, or a German or Alsatian riesling, should have a certain 'minerality' to it.

They may both be right, but the usefulness of the label depends upon how people interpret what's being said.

Sorry to be introducing too many wine analogies into the post...

Andrew
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LeoFox
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Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 pm

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Baisao
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Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:48 pm

LeoFox wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 pm
viewtopic.php?p=35040#p35040
So the mineral flavor/scent is the aroma of gunflint? I don’t drink alcohol so I wouldn’t know it from wine and have never encountered this aroma in yancha or any other tea.
Andrew S
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Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:14 am

@LeoFox: thank you; I thought that I may have recalled that from here somewhere, among other places... Searching for 'minerality in wine' brings up an awful lot, most of which I will ignore.

@Baisao: I think that that is yet another area where there may be disagreement. I wouldn't want to pretend to be particularly experienced with wine (or tea), but 'flintiness' in wine is something which I think is rather different to 'minerality', and it seems that these authors miss that, at least to my quick read. I think that flint is a distraction.

Flint does seem to be associated with a 'reductive' approach to winemaking, especially for certain white Burgundies (some winemakers have made it rather famous, and they aim intentionally for that style, even though it leads to thoroughly unhelpful reviews, to the effect of: 'Nice wine. Hard to tell. Could be great. Lots of reduction. Pretty muted. Try it again in 2030. 88-93+ points.').

Minerals seem to me to be something else in wine; something fresh and vibrant but difficult, beyond mere acidity, and which cuts through or assists with fruitiness, and gives it some backbone or substance. I would guess that it could have something to do with tannins (even for white wines), and a combination of many other things that I don't know about. I'm not good at describing flavours and aromas, so I won't try any further. I'm sure others will do a much better job.

I guess that it's an overall feeling or sensation, for which people try to ascribe a word, even though that word, taken alone (and without context, especially without trying the wine in question at the same time) is mostly meaningless.

I could describe a wine or a whisky, or a tea, as being 'chalky', but no-one would think there's any chalk in there. Minerality just seems to be another one of those imperfect descriptions.

As for tea, minerality tends to suggest to me a combination of roast, tannin (or equivalent), pleasant austerity, and a feeling that it is more than the sum of its flavours. Calling it a 'flavour' seems wrong. And I think that it can't only be the roast, because I've had lighter styles that have had that quality.

But it's not something that I aim for. It's just a part of the tea, sometimes.

I'm tempted to say that 'a sense of place' is a better use of language than 'minerality', but it's probably much worse.

Andrew
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LeoFox
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Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:47 am

Baisao wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:48 pm
LeoFox wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 pm
viewtopic.php?p=35040#p35040
So the mineral flavor/scent is the aroma of gunflint? I don’t drink alcohol so I wouldn’t know it from wine and have never encountered this aroma in yancha or any other tea.
That's just one thing being listed there.
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StoneLadle
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Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:10 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:45 am
oeroe wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm
My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:
.....
5: General name for any yancha
About #5, I think I've had a conversations like this:
"Which tea this is?"
"It's Da Hong Pao"
"Oh, I would have guessed it's Shuixian"
"Yes, that's right, it's Shuixian. It's a kind of Da Hong Pao"
:D :D Thanks for that. It made me laugh though that happens seriously, not like a comedy routine.

I have often repeated that when one obtains or tastes tea that he loves, he is wise to buy immediately a significant amount of that tea: some more of the same stash. I'll add today that we are wise about tea when we have enough of it to keep us happy for at least 6 months. Knowing a lot of details (cultivars etc.) does not enable one to have the best tea always. Top quality teas may not be available for years. Some may be gone forever.
very sensible
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StoneLadle
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Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:11 am

mbanu wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:24 am
oeroe wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm
My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:

1: The original DHP bushes and their tea
2: Tea produced from the bushes grown from cuttings of original DHP bushes
3: Special blend
4: Blend of all leftovers roasted more
5: General name for any yancha

Difference between #3 and #4 is interesting. I've seen/heard some say that DHP is a proud title, so it is the higher quality blend. But also, it is often said that leftovers of tea production are lumped together, given an extra roast and labeled DHP. So it is possible that #3 vs #4 is in the marketing.
Not sure if it is the same #4, but John Blofeld mentioned seeing a blend like this in the vaudeville teahouses (places with flower-drummers, Chinese acrobats, etc.) of Republican-era Beijing, where he said that, "The general favorite was a cheap but unusual tea called notable remnants, a blend of rejected 'sweepings' from many kinds of expensive tea."
Blofeld is a legend...
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