What makes a modern Da Hong Pao a Da Hong Pao?

Semi-oxidized tea
User avatar
mbanu
Posts: 962
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 3:45 pm

Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:08 pm

I would have assumed that it was just clonal copies of the original bushes, but supposedly that is not the case -- often a "Da Hong Pao" will be blended with Shuixian or Rougui. Is it just the roasting style?

Do these blends have a different name, other than "counterfeit Da Hong Pao"? Seven Cups has such a tea made from the Jin Guanyin #204 cultivar, that it politely calls it "Xiao Hong Pao", but they said that it would just be Da Hong Pao in China.

If it's just the roasting, what makes a Da Hong Pao roast distinct from other heavy roasts?
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:13 pm

My (limited) understanding is that there is a distinction between calling something 'da hong pao' to describe a varietal/cultivar (ie, 'da hong pao', 'bei dou', 'qi dan', in contradistinction to other varietals/cultivars), and calling something 'da hong pao' to describe the overall quality, style or flavour-profile (ie, 'da hong pao' to describe a higher-quality yancha-style tea, and 'shui xian' to describe a lower-quality example of the same overall kind of tea).

I thought that the latter characterisation is common in, or is traditional to, Hong Kong, where higher-roasts have been common (including by roasting the tea in Hong Kong) and the characteristics of the varietal/cultivar may be hidden by the roast, but otherwise I'll wait to hear from others wiser and more knowledgeable than I am to learn more.

And I don't know what "xiao hong pao" really means, though I've seen tea being called that every now and then.

Andrew
oeroe
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:54 am
Location: Finland

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm

My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:

1: The original DHP bushes and their tea
2: Tea produced from the bushes grown from cuttings of original DHP bushes
3: Special blend
4: Blend of all leftovers roasted more
5: General name for any yancha

Difference between #3 and #4 is interesting. I've seen/heard some say that DHP is a proud title, so it is the higher quality blend. But also, it is often said that leftovers of tea production are lumped together, given an extra roast and labeled DHP. So it is possible that #3 vs #4 is in the marketing.

About #5, I think I've had a conversations like this:
"Which tea this is?"
"It's Da Hong Pao"
"Oh, I would have guessed it's Shuixian"
"Yes, that's right, it's Shuixian. It's a kind of Da Hong Pao"
Ethan Kurland
Vendor
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:45 am

oeroe wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm
My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:
.....
5: General name for any yancha
About #5, I think I've had a conversations like this:
"Which tea this is?"
"It's Da Hong Pao"
"Oh, I would have guessed it's Shuixian"
"Yes, that's right, it's Shuixian. It's a kind of Da Hong Pao"
:D :D Thanks for that. It made me laugh though that happens seriously, not like a comedy routine.

I have often repeated that when one obtains or tastes tea that he loves, he is wise to buy immediately a significant amount of that tea: some more of the same stash. I'll add today that we are wise about tea when we have enough of it to keep us happy for at least 6 months. Knowing a lot of details (cultivars etc.) does not enable one to have the best tea always. Top quality teas may not be available for years. Some may be gone forever.
Last edited by Ethan Kurland on Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mbanu
Posts: 962
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 3:45 pm

Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:23 am

It almost sounds like Dahongpao has become the English Breakfast of oolongs... I guess that would make Nanyang oolong blends the Irish Breakfast? :) I saw a vendor offering a Dahongpao that they said contained Tieguanyin, which sort of reminded me of the way that English and Irish Breakfast teas sometimes get jumbled together.
User avatar
mbanu
Posts: 962
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 3:45 pm

Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:24 am

oeroe wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm
My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:

1: The original DHP bushes and their tea
2: Tea produced from the bushes grown from cuttings of original DHP bushes
3: Special blend
4: Blend of all leftovers roasted more
5: General name for any yancha

Difference between #3 and #4 is interesting. I've seen/heard some say that DHP is a proud title, so it is the higher quality blend. But also, it is often said that leftovers of tea production are lumped together, given an extra roast and labeled DHP. So it is possible that #3 vs #4 is in the marketing.
Not sure if it is the same #4, but John Blofeld mentioned seeing a blend like this in the vaudeville teahouses (places with flower-drummers, Chinese acrobats, etc.) of Republican-era Beijing, where he said that, "The general favorite was a cheap but unusual tea called notable remnants, a blend of rejected 'sweepings' from many kinds of expensive tea."
User avatar
Bok
Vendor
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 am
Location: Taiwan

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:13 pm

With all this in mind I had to laugh when I just recently read someone writing about a tea having “a typical DHP taste profile”, which is as we know impossible to exist, unless we are talking about the original, which is of reach of about anyone today.

We might as well call DHP the Multivitamin juice of Yancha. :lol:
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1120
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:42 pm

Bok wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:13 pm
With all this in mind I had to laugh when I just recently read someone writing about a tea having “a typical DHP taste profile”, which is as we know impossible to exist, unless we are talking about the original, which is of reach of about anyone today.

We might as well call DHP the Multivitamin juice of Yancha. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1120
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:25 pm
Location: Penang, Malaysia

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:49 pm

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:45 am
oeroe wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:33 pm
My impression is that DHP can mean any of the following:
.....
5: General name for any yancha
About #5, I think I've had a conversations like this:
"Which tea this is?"
"It's Da Hong Pao"
"Oh, I would have guessed it's Shuixian"
"Yes, that's right, it's Shuixian. It's a kind of Da Hong Pao"
:D :D Thanks for that. It made me laugh though that happens seriously, not like a comedy routine.

I have often repeated that when one obtains or tastes tea that he loves, he is wise to buy immediately a significant amount of that tea: some more of the same stash. I'll add today that we are wise about tea when we have enough of it to keep us happy for at least 6 months. Knowing a lot of details (cultivars etc.) does not enable one to have the best tea always. Top quality teas may not be available for years. Some may be gone forever.
+1+1+1..... knowledge will only add value when it's put to good use to make wise decisions.
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1397
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:18 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:13 pm
My (limited) understanding is that there is a distinction between calling something 'da hong pao' to describe a varietal/cultivar (ie, 'da hong pao', 'bei dou', 'qi dan', in contradistinction to other varietals/cultivars), and calling something 'da hong pao' to describe the overall quality, style or flavour-profile (ie, 'da hong pao' to describe a higher-quality yancha-style tea, and 'shui xian' to describe a lower-quality example of the same overall kind of tea).
I’ve recently encountered the same thing with a Taiwanese Tieguanyin. There was no yin yun so I asked the seller about it. It was another varietal and merely processed in the Tieguanyin-style, yet culturally okay to label as Tieguanyin. It was nevertheless a nice tea, but don’t expect black sugar and candies.

I can’t speak to the rest of Asia but few things fit into nice tidy logical boxes in Taiwan.
Stevelaughs
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:03 am
Location: outside Boston

Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 am

OK BARE WITH ME.

My understanding is that a modern Da Hong Pao is a blend of high quality material harvested in late spring and processed using traditional methods (not sure at which stage blending occurs). The material is sorted and then given a thorough roasting (at least x2) and released in the Fall for consumption. Modern Da Hong Pao should possess a clear floral and mineral character along with the heavier roasted notes.

The mother Da Hong Pao trees are not one varietal, therefore tea made from the mother trees would naturally be a blend. A clone from one of the mother trees is a just that: a clone of a single tree. Tea made from a single clone/cultivar is not "Da Hong Pao." Rather it is Qi Dan, or Bei Dou, etc. (i.e. a single cultivar) before blending.

An aside: I have seen some yancha (not necessarily da hong pao) on the market that have been given a heavy roast... to the point that the leaves are crinkly and caramelized. They are often sold as "traditional." The leaves are no longer pliable and remain stiff to the touch in the gaiwan after several brews. I'm not really sure what to make of this, but I believe it is a niche market of older chaoshan/hong kong/et al. tea drinkers who prefer this style of heavy roasting. In fact, there may be an entire generation of tea drinkers (and some young enthusiasts) who enjoy this style (yayy!) but I don't know that it could be called "traditional."

Last note is that I think modern tastes tend toward a lighter roast... so any modern yancha will have heavy roasting compared to other oolong in the market, but modern tastes tend toward a lighter roast than previous generations.
Ethan Kurland
Vendor
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:39 am

Stevelaughs wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 am
Modern Da Hong Pao should possess a clear floral and mineral character along with the heavier roasted notes.

Last note is that I think modern tastes tend toward a lighter roast... so any modern yancha will have heavy roasting compared to other oolong in the market, but modern tastes tend toward a lighter roast than previous generations.
I found it interesting to read about what different segments of tea drinkers want from Da Hong Pao.

You wrote that older fans of DHP like tasting heavy roast. it reminds me of a vendor in Hong Kong who sold many options for roasted oolong. They all tasted of extreme roasting which the vendor confided was done electrically though customers would expect tradtional roasting for some of the choices. He charged various amounts for teas based on their stories & supposed cultivars, I assume, & all of his prices were very high. To me, all of those teas tasted burnt. My conclusion is that some people want to believe that they are drinking a particular cultivar connected to status and/or a memory of that tea; &, that they like the taste of heavy roast (which I found overwhelmingly unpleasant).

I do not buy DHP but have drunk it a few times w/ a couple of people whom I respect quite a bit regarding tea. DHP that they thought was quite good but not the best, had very little floral character, if any, & no mineral character. The roast was not extreme & did not put me off the teas; nonetheless, the sessions disappointed me because DHP is supposed to be special. (I suppose I mean the elusive, "real" DHP.)

Fans of the most difficult teas (to obtain and/or prepare) don't seem to mind that so many of their tea sessions that are enjoyable, are only pleasant; some sessions are just fair or awful; & very few sessions are wonderful. I am a bit like them in that I am reading & participating in this thread to understand such people, though I won't, just as they might never find the DHP they seek. :D
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:34 pm

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:39 am
Fans of the most difficult teas (to obtain and/or prepare) don't seem to mind that so many of their tea sessions that are enjoyable, are only pleasant; some sessions are just fair or awful; & very few sessions are wonderful. I am a bit like them in that I am reading & participating in this thread to understand such people, though I won't, just as they might never find the DHP they seek. :D
I think that there's a lot of truth to that universally, and not just in yancha or tea. Many people in various fields of interest pursue something, not because of the pleasure that it can provide them each time, but rather because, sometimes, just maybe, it'll give them something truly extraordinary, and they remember those times while forgetting about the rest.

Chasing the Burgundy wine dragon comes to mind. You do it for the memory of that one amazing bottle you once had, and you forget about all the overpriced mediocrity that you suffered through along the way. I guess yancha falls into a similar category (and perhaps it attracts the same kinds of people who don't mind punishing themselves on their tea journey in the hope of finding something special).

As to traditional versus modern styles, my preference is definitely for the more roasted category than the less roasted one, albeit that I only sometimes enjoy the 'too roasted' extreme of the former, like the tea equivalent of eating some chocolate.

It's always dangerous to talk about traditions, not only because they change over time and they denote some kind of historical romanticism, but also because they mean different things to different people, and to different people in different places. So I have my own view of what a traditional yancha might taste like, but if I were buying it from Hong Kong, I'd have to make sure that I'm getting the 'properly' roasted style, rather than the 'too roasted' style.

Yancha feels like a tea where there's a fascinating interplay between the tea 'itself', so to say, and the art of the tea-maker. That's certainly not to say that other types of tea don't involve skill, but perhaps rather to say that the artistry in making the tea seems to come to the fore more in yancha, and is more subtle in some other teas.

Andrew
User avatar
Baisao
Posts: 1397
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Location: ATX

Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:44 pm

Andrew S wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:34 pm
Yancha feels like a tea where there's a fascinating interplay between the tea 'itself', so to say, and the art of the tea-maker. That's certainly not to say that other types of tea don't involve skill, but perhaps rather to say that the artistry in making the tea seems to come to the fore more in yancha, and is more subtle in some other teas.
@Andrew S, by “tea maker” do you mean the person(s) who processed the tea leaves or the person making the final tea beverage?

If it is the latter, I feel that yancha is relatively unchallenging to make compared to some of the Taiwanese, high mountain teas. But then I my approach to all teas is one of moderation. I’m sure it can be more difficult if it is taken to extremes.
Andrew S
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:53 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:53 pm

@Baisao: no, you're right, I should have clarified. The former, not the latter.

I didn't want to say 'tea grower' or 'farmer' since they might not be the ones doing the roasting. And I didn't want to say 'roaster', since I'm sure that there's much more to it than that.

My approach to yancha has involved playing around with extremes recently, but I find that I still use a lighter hand with the better ones, and that I go harder on the 'everyday' ones.

Andrew
Post Reply