talkin' tie guan yin

Semi-oxidized tea
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Looking for some guidance here myself, and seems worth having a dedicated thread. So, please correct me if I'm way off base here to start... but I get the impression that in more recent years TGY gets kind of pushed to the side for a number of reasons. Main thing seems to be that as with so many other styles and regions, a lot of the tea that comes out of Anxi now is either low quality, bad deal for the price, or very $$ for the good stuff and requires a lot of looking/knowledge/sampling. Also that processing has changed and these days things tend to be very light and floral (I suppose kind of chasing after the market/popularity of high mountain oolongs?) and either green or roasted rather badly, and that finding more 'traditional' or old school style TGY can be tricky. If you have access to them it seems that maybe the best places for getting such teas these days is from old school merchants who tend to have house styles made to order for them. Muzha also seems to generally be the favored way to go over teas from Anxi these days for both quality and price. I'm really curious about how processing has changed over the years and between regions.


Generally I actually tend to avoid oolongs altogether and the only two I find I really keep around is some shuixian and TGY. I get samples of different regions/varietals but always once they're gone I never go back for more. For whatever reason the high roast is something I crave now and then, though typically when I'm feeling under the weather, so I tend to keep a few boxes of sea dyke around. something about the (over)roasting and slight juicy sourness seems to really work for me. But I've been curious to try some better instances and see if its something I can enjoy and appreciate on a different level. Fukien is one place that seems a really good option for this kind of classic high roast style, but I obviously don't have access to them unfortunately.
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mbanu
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:12 pm

As you suspect, the lighter roast was a Taiwanese invention, one of the many changes to mainland Chinese tea-culture brought on by Taiwanese tea merchants sourcing tea from the mainland. I'm not sure if these were originally meant to be counterfeit Taiwanese teas, to fill a desire for things from "old China" that fit modern Taiwanese tastes, or if these teas were being re-exported, perhaps as pouchong teas.

However, these teas also caused a renewal of interest in Tieguanyin with younger mainlanders. Classic roasted tieguanyin was mostly popular with older folks and overseas-Chinese communities. This is a bit similar to how in other countries, young people are usually not very interested in the local things that their parents liked at their age, even if both generations are interested in things from "the old country".

Luo Ying Yin wrote about this in the seventh issue of The Art of Tea magazine:
From traditional to lightly fermented Tieguanyin

Why has 200 plus years of traditional tea craft been turned on its head in only a few years? Is it because traditional techniques are unprofitable, wasting time and labor? Or is it because tea drinker's tastes have changed? Don’t young people prefer sweet flavors that are not bitter or astringent? Or is it because the traditional method of “producing tea by judging greenness” requires deep accumulated experience in order to make quality tea; whereas switching to an air-conditioned, climate-controlled environment allows for stable quality, benefiting large-scale production and expansion of the market?

Anxi tea elder Wang Qingchang recalls that in 1992 people from Taiwan came to make “pearl tea.” At the time this was a technique used to pick green tea. After picking the tea, they immediately dried it in woks without letting it oxidize. Then they used Taiwanese tight rubbing techniques (using rubbing/twisting machines brought from Taiwan). Over the next several years, a stream of people came to Anxi from Taiwan to grow, process, and then export tea back to Taiwan. By 1996, Anxi was using “light fermentation” techniques to produce dark-green, tightly balled, fresh, sweet Tieguanyin tea. From the moment it appeared on the market, new consumers praised the tea. Quanzhou people were especially enthusiastic.

From 1999 onward, Anxi tea farmers took another bold step in employing new technologies. Building on the foundation of light tea processing, they began using air-conditioned, low-temperature processing, This was the first step toward a complete process, greatly transforming the traditional Tieguanyin tea production process. It is said that in 2001, Quanzhou relayed a message back to Anxi: “As long as it’s green, at 1000RMB/catty we’ll buy it all,” In an instant, the production methods snowballed throughout Anxi, one location becoming ten and then ten becoming one hundred. “Lightly fermented” Tieguanyin engulfed the entire Anxi tea growing district.
This would have been 2008, I think? Obviously since then the boom has gone bust, although I am not sure of the details.
Ethan Kurland
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:30 pm

wave_code wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:55 pm
.... For whatever reason the high roast is something I crave now and then, though typically when I'm feeling under the weather, so I tend to keep a few boxes of sea dyke around. something about the (over)roasting and slight juicy sourness seems to really work for me.
I've only enjoyed roasted TGY from Taiwan. It was different than other roasted cultivars. My point being, one can crave something unique because it is different from what he usually drinks (even if he prefers the usual almost always).

Second point, quality is another issue. Jayinhk & I were very lucky as far as quality when we were together for the beginning of my initial trip to the lovely island, finding terrific high roasted TGY & terrific medium roasted TGY (but we did pay high prices). I can't remember if I ever came across such quality again. If I did, it was only once. Lower quality (for my palate) roasted TGY was totally unappealing to me.

You may like lots of oolongs, if you are lucky enough to sample quality that suits you (not necessarily what is considered the highest quality of particular cultivars).
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Bok
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:27 pm

As far as I know the green TGY was indeed influenced by Taiwanese tea, but by their Gaoshan teas.
It also seems to me that in general (vague) the majority of Chinese tea drinkers prefer green processed teas. So it might just be easier to sell for the home market. And of course less work for possibly the same or more money. Roasting involves more processing steps.

I never liked TGY from Taiwan much, The roasted teas from the center of Taiwan do much more hit my preferences. I had some traditional tgy from China, but compared to the Taiwanese ones it lacked depth to me, a bit like a Japanese Hongcha next to one from Taiwan : )
Last edited by Bok on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bok
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pm

Also worth revisiting @Tillerman article on the topic of TGY in Taiwan: https://tillermantea.net/2019/06/muzha/
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Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:02 pm

Modern TGY is quite different from what the tea used to be like. Before the Taiwanese processing style was used, the leaves actually looked more like dancong. This is one that I tasted and really enjoyed: https://www.zhentea.ca/chinese-tea/tie- ... n-classic/
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Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:07 am

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:30 pm
You may like lots of oolongs, if you are lucky enough to sample quality that suits you (not necessarily what is considered the highest quality of particular cultivars).
I have had oolongs I like, I just have found that generally a lot of them aren't worth it to me. I particularly have avoided things like yancha and dancong just because its such a wide range with so much hit or miss in terms of which cultivars would be most to my taste, high prices... while I'm curious it still doesn't grab me enough to put my money there over fermented teas. I figure some day I'll be able to sit down with someone else who is knowledgeable and has some good teas to share or get to visit a good shop and that maybe I would find something then that grabs me more. Until then theres plenty else to keep me busy.

But, your point about highest quality not being the best I think is key here to keep in mind. After all, taste remains subjective and evolving - something that might be considered a standard bearer for a particular type of tea might not suit a new drinker's palette best, or even an experienced one for that matter, as it goes with whiskey or wine or other foods. This is actually part of why I'm looking to try some other TGY - thus far these kinds of high roast oolongs for me I find I enjoy at quite low grade compared to anything else. I think we all probably have a particular tea we still love or go back to all the time for whatever reason, even if it isn't actually that 'good' if we try and assess it objectively in terms of grade, production quality, so on. So, I'm wanting to see is it that this is a particular tea for me where I like my cheap little paper box for when I'm stuffed up and thats that, or is it that high roast TGY is actually the oolong that has grabbed my attention over those from wuyi and I should go a little deeper.

Thanks for the Tillerman article @Bok - they're on my list of places to try for Muzha next time I am back in the states.

@teaformeplease thanks for the tip. I've seen some other 90s TGY and even later productions that when specifically being made in a more traditional way also looked more like this, or if rolled were still rolled in a very loose looking way compared to the sort of compressed nuggets that seem the standard now.
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Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:45 pm

I first enountered TGY as SeaDyke red label TKY, a tea recommended to my Dad from a chinese friend in the 80s, and I drank little but that until the early aughts when it was suddenly hard to find. It was the base of my tea palate. Then I went through a bunch of random tins of tea from the international market and most were quite a bit less satisfying. I had a revelation when I opened a tin of TenRen Pouchong, however, and started exploring.

My next TGY encounter was with Norbu's 'Diamond Grade' TGY in 2009, a rolled green Anxi TGY that simply blew me away. It was floral, sweet, with depth of richness that kept it delicious through a dozen infusions. I think, after reading the discussion above, that was a sweet spot between the development and wider dissemination of this style of TGY, and when the quality dropped everywhere I could get my hands on it, whether due to shifting lesser grades of tea to this style, or to the best stuff simply being no longer available.

I've continued to buy both traditional roast and light roast TGY, but while I can still enjoy the best of the lighter TGYs, I've never recaptured that transcendant experience with the Norbu 'Diamond Grade'. I don't think it's just that my palate has changed with more experience, because other teas I compared it with at the time (light roast Alishans) still give me the same enjoyment I had then.

And I still seek out the red-labeled tins of SeaDyke, as a daily drinker that, when I get it just right in the thermos, can be quite a pleasing experience during a busy day at work.
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Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 am

starting to branch out a bit... I got myself a sample of Hojo's 'Black Tie Guan Yin' as part of my order. This one is from Fujian, not Taiwan, and it sure is black and roasted. It still looks pretty tightly rolled compared to the more traditional processing. Going to let it rest for a bit but I'm excited to try it. My current boxes ran out so I pulled out two boxes of Sea Dyke, yellow and red, which I have had sitting for about 3 years now, I need to get some fresh boxes to see if that time mellows them at all.

there is a lot of talk and info on oolong brewing and say the traditional Chaozhou style for phoenix oolongs... but I'm curious for traditional processed/high fire TGY do most people go for the typical 5g/100ml ratio, or do people also tend to really pack as much leaf in until the pot/gaiwan can barely close and flash brew? also wondering if there is a difference between how people in Fujian would brew as opposed to say Hong Kong style (which I'm guessing is strong/high leaf).
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Tue May 25, 2021 1:15 pm

What's the "traditional" method/ craft ?
To discuss this topics we should select a time period first.

https://www.tres.gov.tw/ws.php?id=2284&print=Y
Just quick summarize above article.

1930/04/26 - Japanese Gov think Baozhong's look is not good enough to sale abroad. They launched a seminar to introduce/ discuss and spread "rolling-style Baozhong" to all island farmer. Two masters named 王泰友/王德 (, record by 徐英祥) . These two masters went to Nantou to teach farmer to use "Anxi TGY" rolling-technique. Combine "Baozhong" and "Anxi's rolling technique" to dong-ding in 1941.
-----before that, rolling style is well know in north Taiwan farmer (most of them were immigrant from Anxi). From 1900~1970 - Maybe you can say it's Qing's Anxi Traditional. But withering technique is much much different. They combined Baozhong technique already.

After 1973 - (1973 年鹿谷鄉永隆村陳拍收先生研發布球揉捻機成功) - Mr. 陳拍收 invested 束包機(i don't know how to translate). Before this year, most of the rolling style is semi-ball shape. After 1973, ball-shape was getting popular.

AND!!!!! most important - after 2010 - There's a new compress machine be introduced from Anxi back to Taiwan. It change rolling technique a lot.


BAck the the topics? what's the tradition craft?

Anxi hand rolling with Anxi withering technique in Qing Dynasty?
Anxi hand rolling + semi machine help with Baozhong withering technique in Japan gov period? (early ROC)?

or tradisional in 70'? 2000?

hahah...it's good topic for Taiwanese tea lover also.....
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Wed May 26, 2021 4:29 am

good point and thanks for the historical overview @maple. I'll see how decent a translation job google can do and have a read through at some point. its good to be specific about these things - after all in 10-20 years or so maybe younger people will chase after nuclear green TGY if the processing goes in another direction or becomes less common with a drop in popularity because then that processing it is the thing they heard how it used to be.

I guess for me I'm sort of referring to what I've seen as more of a vintage style processing that from what I've seen that would still be accessible to those of us within a generation without it costing huge sums for being antique tea. From my limited experience it seems like was what was a little easier to find in the 80s or 90s with Anxi TGY- maybe some rolling but rather loose and less compressed, medium oxidation, roasted. Then again I don't know if that was still people attempting to continue or re-create a more 'traditional' style then, the way 90s puerh reproduction cakes are getting to be old and expensive now but are actually attempts at re-creating or being tributes to recipes from even earlier. It sounds like that might be the case, at least in terms of rolling and shaping.

Then I guess even at the parallel time there would be the Hong Kong tradition of having the same tea being very highly roasted and intended to either be very strong and/or have some significant resting time.
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Wed May 26, 2021 9:54 am

@wave_code

it's good notice.
It's always different perspective from Tea-Shop away plantation.

In Hongkong/ Singapore and Malaysia, maybe we should asked their tea in "brand" name and blending.
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Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:12 pm

Tieguanyin was once very popular in China, but because many tea merchants in Anxi are shoddy and use artificial additives or heavier baking to cover up the taste of poor quality tea, the popularity of Tieguanyin has been gradually reduced.

The light roasting degree is more popular for it can bring out more orchid fragrance of this tea.And the heavy roasted Tieguanyin or the traditional charcoal-baked Tieguanyin are more preferred by tgy tea lovers.
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Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:25 pm

For excellent high roasted TGY try the Muzha TGY from Taiwan. Choose carefully for a lot of the leaf out there is not TGY at all but rather qing xin. As always, look for reputable growers.
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Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:54 am

teaformeplease wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:02 pm
Modern TGY is quite different from what the tea used to be like. Before the Taiwanese processing style was used, the leaves actually looked more like dancong. This is one that I tasted and really enjoyed: https://www.zhentea.ca/chinese-tea/tie- ... n-classic/
that's a fully modern TGY expression if you ask me, but no one did, so whatever lol

the leaves are too green for any measure of a "traditional" TGY IMHO, and that's before i get to the tea soup, which looks like... stained water...
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