What Oolong Are You Drinking

Semi-oxidized tea
Ethan Kurland
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:31 am

That sounds delicious, Jay. What you say about resting roasted teas is interesting. I am finding that rest has quite an effect, enough effect that I am disregarding what I had written about preparation. Not all of my roasted oolongs have benefited from rest as they seem overly dominated by their charcoal-roast.
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Victoria
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:48 pm

tealifehk wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:12 pm
Tried a high roast DHP from the family who produce the Three Stamp Shuixian here in HK. Wow, dramatic difference after resting for over a year. Much more depth and intensity of flavor. Not a 'textbook' blended DHP flavor, but something very different; I think this is all DHP varietal. I get dark fruit and floral, with almond and bitter orange on the finish, and a sweetness on the exhale that I can't identify. Really quite nice now! A few of the vendors who stuck to roasting a few types of oolong for decades are now experimenting with other types of Fujian teas and I think they are releasing these teas to market too soon. A few weeks ago, I bought several kinds of charcoal roast Wuyicha from a vendor that specializes in charcoal roasting TGY. I'll let those teas rest for a year and it'll be interesting to see how they turn out!
I wonder what occurs during this resting period with what I’m assuming is Da Hong Pao (Big Red Robe), are microbes digesting extra charcoal from a roast that was not optimal in the first place? Curious since I’m enjoying heavy roasted oolongs from HY Chen that do not require this kind of extended resting period. Gyokuro need 6 months rest and some are even better smoother one year later. Not sure what that process is either. Then there is Sheng extended aging process.....
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tealifehk
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:42 pm

Victoria wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:48 pm
tealifehk wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:12 pm
Tried a high roast DHP from the family who produce the Three Stamp Shuixian here in HK. Wow, dramatic difference after resting for over a year. Much more depth and intensity of flavor. Not a 'textbook' blended DHP flavor, but something very different; I think this is all DHP varietal. I get dark fruit and floral, with almond and bitter orange on the finish, and a sweetness on the exhale that I can't identify. Really quite nice now! A few of the vendors who stuck to roasting a few types of oolong for decades are now experimenting with other types of Fujian teas and I think they are releasing these teas to market too soon. A few weeks ago, I bought several kinds of charcoal roast Wuyicha from a vendor that specializes in charcoal roasting TGY. I'll let those teas rest for a year and it'll be interesting to see how they turn out!
I wonder what occurs during this resting period with what I’m assuming is Da Hong Pao (Big Red Robe), are microbes digesting extra charcoal from a roast that was not optimal in the first place? Curious since I’m enjoying heavy roasted oolongs from HY Chen that do not require this kind of extended resting period. Gyokuro need 6 months rest and some are even better smoother one year later. Not sure what that process is either. Then there is Sheng extended aging process.....
I actually found the Fushoushan I bought from him was much better over a year later; kyarazen had suggested transferring some to a caddy for a while before drinking. I didn't do this when I received the tea, but I left some in the original tin for a long time and I found the tea to have much more complexity after a year. I haven't revisited the Dongding to see how it performs now.

Since oolong tea is dry, I don't think microbes have much if anything to do with it. It's air and oxidation. I've noticed this with my own home roasting experiments as well, and of course, aging oolongs is very much a thing. Roasted oolongs are usually rested before sale, often for six months or more. What exactly happens during this time is something I haven't looked into just yet, but there are definitely profound changes when aging oolongs.

I believe Kyarazen indicated it was a moisture thing and the tea may have shipped too dry, but I'm not sure if that's exactly what he said. I think oxidation and humidity are key to the changes we see, so the changes would be purely chemical and environmental vs biological (unless there's enough humidity for microbes to get their microbe on). I've seen some aged oolongs turn into something a lot like shou pu erh because of excess humidity (in Taiwan and with Wuyicha that I sampled in Guangzhou)!
Last edited by tealifehk on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
plod
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:59 am

Cheers for putting up a new forum! Glad to see so many informative posts already.

I got a box of four teas (plus a sample) from HY Chen, about two months back, and finally found the time to give it some serious attention. Per Victoria's recommendation, I've started with the Lishan. Aired it out a bit, let it rest a few days, and have brewed it three times already. Leaf is obviously high quality, and the tea has some striking features - I kept spacing out with the gaiwan lid in front of my nose. But I can't quite seem to balance my brewing. It either comes up a bit light, or it gets thick and strong, with decent throat feel, but the nuances kind of drown. The tea almost seems to be a bit...sleepy. Maybe I should wake it up some more. Any suggestions on parameters for this?

The other teas I have are the 2017 Fu Shou Shan, his light charcoal roasted 100 yr old garden, Mucha TGY...and a sample of the heavy charcoal roast. Any advice on how to best brew these would be welcome! I'll experiment, of course, but it's useful to have a starting point, or other experiences to compare and contrast.

Previous posts could be instructive as well - I figured I would have to drink the Lishan and the Fu Shou Shan rather quickly once opened, but tealife.hk's experience suggests letting it sit for a while might not be such a bad idea.
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Bok
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:21 am

plod wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:59 am
Previous posts could be instructive as well - I figured I would have to drink the Lishan and the Fu Shou Shan rather quickly once opened, but tealife.hk's experience suggests letting it sit for a while might not be such a bad idea.
If in the vacuum pack unopened they can stay a year easy, but in a cool place, a dedicated odorless fridge is ideal.

Not sure if the teas get better though, if the tea is high quality you do not need to wait! On the other hand I had some not so well made greener oolongs which had too much heat as they say here and had to rest to make them drinkable. Hard to describe this heat feeling, but it is definitely unpleasant.
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Victoria
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:22 pm

plod wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:59 am
Cheers for putting up a new forum! Glad to see so many informative posts already.

I got a box of four teas (plus a sample) from HY Chen, about two months back, and finally found the time to give it some serious attention. Per Victoria's recommendation, I've started with the Lishan. Aired it out a bit, let it rest a few days, and have brewed it three times already. Leaf is obviously high quality, and the tea has some striking features - I kept spacing out with the gaiwan lid in front of my nose. But I can't quite seem to balance my brewing. It either comes up a bit light, or it gets thick and strong, with decent throat feel, but the nuances kind of drown. The tea almost seems to be a bit...sleepy. Maybe I should wake it up some more. Any suggestions on parameters for this?

The other teas I have are the 2017 Fu Shou Shan, his light charcoal roasted 100 yr old garden, Mucha TGY...and a sample of the heavy charcoal roast. Any advice on how to best brew these would be welcome! I'll experiment, of course, but it's useful to have a starting point, or other experiences to compare and contrast.

Previous posts could be instructive as well - I figured I would have to drink the Lishan and the Fu Shou Shan rather quickly once opened, but tealife.hk's experience suggests letting it sit for a while might not be such a bad idea.
Good to see you here! Here are my steeping parameters from my log, but beware, I like it stronger and more robust than many. Steeping parameters also really depends on water type used, teapot shape and material, plus individual preference for light towards robust flavor profile.
I don't flash wash most of Chen's oolongs because they are clean, except the Fushoushan because leaves are so thick.

FuShouShan: from kyarazen "very hot water but thin stream, low height, no bubbling nor froth, down the inner side of the pot, steeping time 45 seconds to 1 minute, dispense gently and minimize any aerosolization or bubbling, this is to preserve the buttery creamy texture of the tea as these high mountain teas are not heavily crushed or "juiced" during the kneading stage in order to preserve the delicate notes and textures, they need incubation time and gentle water dispensing in the beginning. as you get into the later steeps, 7,8,9 you can even let it steep for very long durations and drink it later as a cool brew. the leaves will continue to give flavour as long as you give it time. " "the FSS tea does not have the tea juice crushed out onto the surface so it doesnt have super fast steeping times. such teas need space to absorb water, expand, before leaching out flavour and fragrance into the tea brew.. needing longer steep times, and less leaf packing (not restricted by the small pot)"

VC Steeping: 2.4gr leaf: 1oz water (Many prefer 1st steep: 1min).
1st Steep: 8.3gr/100ml/off boil/2min. in Yixing F2 125ml Hongni ShuiPing, rinse for 5 seconds with luke warm water, discard. Gentle water dispensing in the beginning. smooth buttery sweet better than last year.very elegant. Delicious rich and thicker than last year.
2min, 2min, 4min,16min....and so on till it is steeped overnight into next day.

Charcoal Light Roasted 100 year garden 1.5gr leaf:1oz water ratio. (Many prefer 1st steep: 30sec, then adding 20 seconds per infusion after that).
12gr/240ml/204f/1:10sec in Hokujo's 250ml kyusu. My morning brew so is large. Tasty but I prefer his heavy roast.
1:10min, 1:10, 2:30, 6, 15, 40, 2hr....and so on till it is steeped overnight into next day.

Mucha Tieguanyin 1.5gr leaf:1oz water ratio
8 gr/120 ml/204f/ 60sec. in Hokujo 180ml kyusu.
60sec, 60sec, 2min, 8min, 20min,1.5hr,4hr-overnight

Heavy charcoal roast: 1.6gr leaf: 1oz water. (While I go to 60 seconds in 1st steep, for lighter brew stop at 25-45seconds)
10gr/180ml/under boil/60sec., in Hokujo 180ml kaolin kyusu. My favorite!
60sec, 60sec, 2min, 8min, 20min,1.5hr,4hr-overnight
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Bok
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:25 am

Have been testing fresh Lishan winter harvest over the last few days. I always do that to account for uncontrollable circumstances outside of brewing parameters, like mood, food eaten, weather etc.

Very interesting in this case that the two teas I sample are from exactly the same farm, same spot etc, only difference is that they where harvested on different days!

It is astonishing, how they are different! One is lighter, more floral with and aftertaste which suddenly pops up after a few infusions. The other is more as I would expect winter harvest, thick, lots of aftertaste from the get go, the whole mouth is coated with high mountain goodness. That gaoshan buttery smell coming off the leaves after the first infusion is intoxicating, mmmh, nothing better than fresh tea from the farm!

I would have never thought that the difference could be that big... if I did not know better, they seem like two different teas.
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:55 pm

Bok wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:25 am
Very interesting in this case that the two teas I sample are from exactly the same farm, same spot etc, only difference is that they where harvested on different days!

I would have never thought that the difference could be that big... if I did not know better, they seem like two different teas.
Dr. Chen's son, Snac, told me that the time of day leaves are harvested also makes a significant difference. The best & most expensive tea that I get from them, Father's Love, was harvested at noon, the time which Snac said was ideal. Such talk may seem silly at times; until we put teas to the test as you did Bok. Cheers
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Victoria
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:36 pm

Bok wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:25 am
Have been testing fresh Lishan winter harvest over the last few days. I always do that to account for uncontrollable circumstances outside of brewing parameters, like mood, food eaten, weather etc.

Very interesting in this case that the two teas I sample are from exactly the same farm, same spot etc, only difference is that they where harvested on different days!

It is astonishing, how they are different! One is lighter, more floral with and aftertaste which suddenly pops up after a few infusions. The other is more as I would expect winter harvest, thick, lots of aftertaste from the get go, the whole mouth is coated with high mountain goodness. That gaoshan buttery smell coming off the leaves after the first infusion is intoxicating, mmmh, nothing better than fresh tea from the farm!

I would have never thought that the difference could be that big... if I did not know better, they seem like two different teas.
Very interesting for sure. It is possible that the leaves were plucked from different parts of the field, or different fields altogether, and processed by a different person leading to very different results. This bring up something I also experienced with Floating Leaves; seasonal LiShan yielded very different results within the same season even though the vendor purchased from same farmer. This lead to disappointment in my case, so maybe I should give FL another go rather than discount the lack of consistency.

By the way, above you recommended a dedicated refridgerator for teas, I can attest that camping bear proof airtight odor proof Loksak Opsak bags make it possible to store teas in the same refridgerator containing garlic and fish. They really work well to seal off any transfer of odor. https://loksak.com/opsak/
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:44 pm

Victoria wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:36 pm
Very interesting for sure. It is possible that the leaves were plucked from different parts of the field, or different fields altogether, and processed by a different person leading to very different results. This bring up something I also experienced with Floating Leaves; seasonal LiShan yielded very different results within the same season even though the vendor purchased from same farmer. This lead to disappointment in my case, so maybe I should give FL another go rather than discount the lack of consistency.
Different part of the field might be, otherwise I do not think there would be enough increase on one spot overnight to pluck again. As for the rest I do know for sure in this case that it was the same field and same person/team processing.
Victoria wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:36 pm
By the way, above you recommended a dedicated refridgerator for teas, I can attest that camping bear proof airtight odor proof Loksak Opsak bags make it possible to store teas in the same refridgerator containing garlic and fish. They really work well to seal off any transfer of odor. https://loksak.com/opsak/
I will check those out, thanks for the tipp!
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Bok
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:46 pm

Ethan Kurland wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:55 pm
Dr. Chen's son, Snac, told me that the time of day leaves are harvested also makes a significant difference. The best & most expensive tea that I get from them, Father's Love, was harvested at noon, the time which Snac said was ideal. Such talk may seem silly at times; until we put teas to the test as you did Bok. Cheers
I was lucky this time, normally you do not get the chance for this kind of comparison, I happened to ask for samples the day the tea was just finished. Not from Dr Chen this time, I do not think they categorise their teas according to the day harvested. Or the info is just difficult to get out of them…
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Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:47 am

Snac told me that they categorize by quality of the finished product. Obviously, the best teas start with the best leaves. Many people equate the best leaves with the highest farms, as we know; so, often height gets mentioned.

I assume that if tea is destined for the best care through all of its processes, one would start with the best leaves. I imagine that some seasons there is not just one optimal day for harvesting. Perhaps rain, sun, cool weather, and hot weather might work in patterns that set up a few optimal days. However, the tea gets to the bin where it is stored, I love being able to taste tea scooped for me to taste and being able ha to purchase right the container that my sample was taken from. Second best is having a vendor who knows exactly what I want and can be relied upon to send it to me. At some point I won't be able to go to Taiwan to sample. (For white tea from Nepal, I have a source who has not let me down yet even though each year the white he has sent me is from a different estate.)

You had some good luck with that 2 day comparison but you were also smart enough to be aware of it. Cheers
plod
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Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 am

Thanks for sharing notes and parameters, Victoria!

The Lishan yielded a lot better results with longer steep times. I also adjusted amount of leaf downwards, based on the quote from Kyarazen, which made room for more aromas and gentler tastes.

Just started snowing here, so will try the heavy charcoal roast today or tomorrow. Very glad to have a point of departure. Will need to get a new teapot soon, none of the ones I have are quite right for lightly oxidised rolled oolongs, so for now I use a porcelain gaiwan. Ok for the first few brews, but as leaves fully unfold and/or steep times reach more than 5 minutes, it's hardly ideal. Not a big fan of cold oolong.
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Bok
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Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:48 am

Forgot I took a picture of my sampling session:
- Glass pitcher, which I just elaborated on in the glass ware section
- Wood-fired teapot by Peter Kuo from Daqian pottery in Taiwan
- Qing dynasty rice bowl and blue-green glaze porcelain cups

And that is how simple sampling in Taiwan can be, sample A and B, no info whatsoever other than that it is Lishan from the same place harvested days apart.

Nice sample size, enough leaves for at least 3 generous sessions.
I used the same amount of leaves immediately brewing one after the other, swapping the order and for consecutive days.

Can not be bothered to buy a few of those cupping sets, too ugly and otherwise useless for my purposes, too much nice teaware not to use it...
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Psyck
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Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:29 am

Bok wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:48 am
...

Can not be bothered to buy a few of those cupping sets, too ugly and otherwise useless for my purposes, too much nice teaware not to use it...
I could never figure out why end users like us would need those cupping sets - they look more useful for vendors and manufactures. After all if doing a 3-5 min western style steep, we can just use any ol mug for it and for comparision testing either use same or similar teaware of your own liking or do them one after another on the same teaware.
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