What HeiCha are you drinking

[friso]

I was having the 2002 Yesheng Liu Bao from Chawang earlier! Still an enjoyable tea, even though it is a bit simple ; nice aged taste, dry wood, earth and spices (cloves, ginger etc.).

I also did a little experiments with different teapots : a modern DCQ and a Nixing, both roughly the same volume. I expected the DCQ to perform better, but it was actually a little too muting for my taste ; it dulled out the "sharper" edge of the tea, especially the spiciness and dry wood, turning it into a more generic hei cha. The Nixing, on the other hand, seemed just perfect !

What do you use for Liu Bao? I feel like a less aggressive zini might do the trick. I'll try it again soon, maybe in a green label QSN.

[Balthazar]

I also have to agree ; the couple Mojun I tasted were a little boring... But then we should point out they are way cheaper than most other brands out there.

Speaking of better brands, I too enjoyed the GJS, but the best I had so far must be the Yun Tai Shan Fu brick. A little pricy for a Fu, but worth every penny, especially if you don't mind a bit of smokiness !

At YS, the Mojun Yi Hao and the YTS "Sentinel Mountain" brick (I assume that’s the one you tried) are actually exactly the same price per gram (USD 0.10). Which of course is really cheap in absolute terms, but probably in the “upper middle segment” of fucha.

(The price difference is more clear in the Chinese market, with the Mojun at USD 0.06 a gram and the YTS at 0.14 (sic))

Agree about YTS btw (although I haven’t had the one YS sells), they’re the most interesting of the big Anhua producers to me. My taobao shopping cart (which is more of a storage place for future reference than an accurate overview of stuff I’m actually planning to buy) is like 50% their products. But like you say, not cheap for their better range… It’s a shame it’s hard to come by earlier productions of theirs, as they seem to do best after a few years of resting time. Allegedly the 2019 and beyond stuff is less smoky than earlier. I recommend trying some of their Huangshan (荒山) productions if you get the chance.

Interesting clay observation btw. My go-to for liubao (ripe, I've had almost no raw lb) is a 90s DCQ which I've had better results with than my modern nixing pot. But the sample size (I don't drink a lot of lb) is small.

[Andrew S]

@friso: my standard liu bao pot is my heavily-seasoned green label qing shui ni (though it also drinks plenty of old loose pu er as well). It seems to do well in accentuating the flavour and mouthfeel.

I'd be interested to see what you think of that match. I know that it all depends on your tea, your objectives, your clay, etc, but it's still interesting to hear what other people think and what their experiences have been.

Andrew

[Tea Adventures]

What do you use for Liu Bao? I feel like a less aggressive zini might do the trick. I'll try it again soon, maybe in a green label QSN.

I mainly use a modern duanni teapot. I have tried most of my Liu Bao with a modern DCQ as well, but I prefer my duanni pot.

The duanni is more muting but makes the tea thicker and creamier. The DCQ pot keeps more of the top notes, but doesn’t feel as thick. It’s an interesting comparison to use them side by side and really focus on the differences.

[wave_code]

I've been going through a lot of my liu bao trying them in different pots, also a bit with liu an too. its really tricky business I think given that if you drink a lot of it you find there can be such a big variance in liu bao styles/processing, and how this affects the best way to make them - gong fu ratios, big pot closer to a high leaf western style, somewhere in between... then how the teas storage affects what type of pot would be best... some I find are really all about the body and are best in nixing, others better in zini, others like lighter and raw ones so far have been fantastic in nosaka while others come out notably flatter to me there... some I even prefer in porcelain. as someone who mainly only really drinks two types of tea I find myself switching between a lot of different kind of clay or pots for just one type of tea, and still finding new and interesting things.

[friso]

At YS, the Mojun Yi Hao and the YTS "Sentinel Mountain" brick (I assume that’s the one you tried) are actually exactly the same price per gram (USD 0.10). Which of course is really cheap in absolute terms, but probably in the “upper middle segment” of fucha.

You're right... I should not get fooled by different brick sizes !

@Andrew S Would you say you treat your liu baos as you would treat older puers ? Mixing them in the same pot, emphasizing flavour and mouthfeel....
Personally, I like this approach, especially when it comes to "raw" liu baos or "farmer" liu baos. Of course, if I were to drink more liu baos from factories, sorted by leaf sizes and fermented like shou puer, then it would make more sense to brew them like shou.

I mainly use a modern duanni teapot. I have tried most of my Liu Bao with a modern DCQ as well, but I prefer my duanni pot.

The duanni is more muting but makes the tea thicker and creamier. The DCQ pot keeps more of the top notes, but doesn’t feel as thick.

That's really interesting ! I think I like to do just the opposite and look for less muting pots. But then again, this is why there is no such thing as a universal tea/teapot pairing.
A thing I love about liu baos and their mouthfeel is precisely that unique dry-earthy astringency, which I was already losing in the modern DCQ.

[friso]

@wave_code You're right, there is a whole lot of variation in liu baos, which makes generalizations even trickier ! Mainly, maybe, because the different styles of liu baos seem to appear on some sort of continuum (more or less fermented) while puers are already sorted into more clear-cut categories. Lots of liu baos seem to be only "lightly fermented", while puers, most of the time, are either raw or cooked all the way.

There is also the whole question of the traditional basket-style double fermentation vs. the modern pile-fermenting imported from Yunnan (which was ironically inspired by liu bao processing). Again, a rabbit hole... !

Also, you seem to say that your nixing emphasizes body? I guess there can be a lot of variations amongst nixing pots, but mine are quite good at preserving aromas, and only seem to add a touch of body (a slighter thicker/silkier texture).

[Andrew S]

@friso: I'm in the minority here, because I haven't played with young liu bao, and have only been trying the older ones (1980s and earlier). Everyone else here is much more experienced with the younger ones, and I'm planning on exploring them more this year (probably once EoT regains access to their storage in Malaysia, after which I'll explore other vendors as well).

But you're correct that I treat those 80s and 70s liu bao just as I would treat an old loose leaf pu er, or a wet stored cake, or an old cooked pu er. I don't believe in quarantining each teapot too much within each broad category, especially when each teapot can add different things for different teas. My preference is to brew liu bao a little bit stronger than pu er to emphasise mouthfeel and flavour instead of elegance, but not by much.

In contrast, I've been brewing old liu an in smaller and less porous teapots, since it's a special treat for me. Zhuni seems to be the best so far...

Andrew

[Balthazar]

One of the rare days where both of my teas were heichas. Familiar ones too, trying out a pot I recently picked up for finer hei/huazhuans. Laser label, hongni with sand particles (紅泥調砂), 120ml. Wanted something simple with very little muting taking place and pulled the trigger when this one turned up.

Teas of the day were the 2018 Bai Sha Xi Furong Guoli and the 2017 YTS Huang Shan. Happy to see that they both work great with this pot (they do with a gaiwan too, but as we all know pots are more fun)



As usual, the BSX was simmered for 10 minutes or so after about a dozen steeps. I've mentioned it before but it's worth repeating, gives a really nice result with a tiny pinch of salt (see image below, this is the amount I used for about 400 ml of water - for reference a full scoop would be about 1/4 of a teaspoon). In particular for huangpian teas such as this BSX (as well as any qianliang out there)

[Tea Adventures]

That's really interesting ! I think I like to do just the opposite and look for less muting pots. But then again, this is why there is no such thing as a universal tea/teapot pairing.
A thing I love about liu baos and their mouthfeel is precisely that unique dry-earthy astringency, which I was already losing in the modern DCQ.

I also like to keep the earthy flavours, but if I have the option to make it creamier and thicker, I prefer the mouthfeel and texture over some of the flavours.
For me, that’s part of what makes it interesting. Losing something while gaining something else... interesting!

[wave_code]

Also, you seem to say that your nixing emphasizes body? I guess there can be a lot of variations amongst nixing pots, but mine are quite good at preserving aromas, and only seem to add a touch of body (a slighter thicker/silkier texture).

For sure I get thicker tea with more body out of my nixing than my zini - how dramatic that difference would seem to someone else though, who knows. All subjective I guess, particularly with what you tend to pay attention to more in the first place. It doesn't kill aroma, but I also wouldn't say it plays it up or does it any favors - whereas the first time I made one of my daily liu baos in my new nosaka pot it was noticeably sweeter and more aromatic, just a more exaggerated or emphasized version of what I already knew was there. I think this is also where nixing gets its 'muting' reputation from- it does tend to downplay storage humidity but I think a lot of that is maybe a perceptual thing where when the body and 'lower' parts of the tea are emphasized higher humid characters of the tea just become less noticeable or at least seem a little more in balance with the rest.

[friso]

@wave_code You're getting me curious about nosaka pots... I might pass an order at Hojo's soon (even though I shouldn't hahaha).

I don't know what to make of nixings reputation anymore. For years I thought they were "emphasizing body over aromas" clays, but on the other hand a modern nixing seller such as M&L swears they are a good alternative to zhunis. And even though I don't agree totally, I have to say that in my own tests they did appear less muting than most zinis. Could be there is a lot of variation between different Nixing pots, or that modern technique has made the clay less muting, I don't know.
And anyway, part of the journey is trying out various teas in various clays ; no fun in "quarantining" each pot to a unique tea type, as @Andrew S says !

[Chris]

Was the Xiang Yi sample the heizhuan brick YS currently stocks? And what's the brick you have on the way? I've had two samples from that brand, both fuzhuans. That heizhuan looks interesting.

Yes, the YS one was the 2007 heichazhuan. I originally told myself I'd buy a brick of it and I still want to, but there's a part of me that thinks I'm nuts to buy an entire kilogram. I first tried it on a much-needed weekend trip to the mountains (with very clean-tasting spring water), so I wonder if my liking it is based partly in nostalgia.

Ironically, the brick I (blind) bought is the 2008 tezhi fuzhuan, not the heichazhuan. I noticed King Tea Mall had a bunch of XY teas and asked them to recommend one to try other offerings. That's the one they suggested and the price was easy to deal with-- hopefully I like it. What did you think of the samples you tried?

Speaking of better brands, I too enjoyed the GJS, but the best I had so far must be the Yun Tai Shan Fu brick. A little pricy for a Fu, but worth every penny, especially if you don't mind a bit of smokiness !

I thought I'd tried this but realized I was mixing it up with a BSX fuzhuan. Another one to add to a future order! I feel like I'm getting carried away buying so many of these teas, but they've been very rewarding to try and vary so much from tea to tea.

What do you use for Liu Bao? I feel like a less aggressive zini might do the trick. I'll try it again soon, maybe in a green label QSN.

I don't drink a ton of liubao, but when I do I usually go with green label zini, or duanni if the wodui is too much. I have one of those little peach(?) white label duanni pots that seemed to pop up a couple of years ago. I'm sure there's nicer duanni but this one works fine for me.

Speaking of liubao, I brewed the 90s Heishi Mountain raw liubao from Three Bears Tea over the weekend. I'm not an expert but I really enjoy this tea. We were able to infuse it at least 7 or 8 times before boiling, drinking some of the boiled tea, and then refrigerating overnight and drinking as iced tea today. It was great all three ways. Refreshing, relaxing, with long-lasting wood and ginseng flavors.

Finally, I'm glad I'm not alone on the devoid-of-anything Mojun teas! They're not gross or anything, but I don't feel moved to buy more, even at a low price point.

[wave_code]

wave_code You're getting me curious about nosaka pots... I might pass an order at Hojo's soon (even though I shouldn't hahaha).

I don't know what to make of nixings reputation anymore. For years I thought they were "emphasizing body over aromas" clays, but on the other hand a modern nixing seller such as M&L swears they are a good alternative to zhunis. And even though I don't agree totally, I have to say that in my own tests they did appear less muting than most zinis. Could be there is a lot of variation between different Nixing pots, or that modern technique has made the clay less muting, I don't know.
And anyway, part of the journey is trying out various teas in various clays ; no fun in "quarantining" each pot to a unique tea type, as Andrew S says !

The nosaka is really interesting... I actually wouldn't recommend it for liu bao in general, but since its 90% of what I drink it seemed worth getting a raw liu bao pot and so far its working very nicely for that. Though it may get switched to something else at some point since I'm still playing around with it - I've only tried liu an in it once so far but I'm curious to see where that goes. From all I have read/seen in a general sense kobiwako might be a better way to go for most liu bao, it sounds kind of similar to nixing in a way in its effect.

I don't have any zhuni to compare to, so can't say anything there. I've been curious to try some nixing from other studios to see how much variation there actually might be with contemporary ones. My M&L one seems to be more on the high fired side over some others I have seen, especially older ones.

[Balthazar]

I first tried it on a much-needed weekend trip to the mountains (with very clean-tasting spring water), so I wonder if my liking it is based partly in nostalgia.

I know that feeling all too well. @Bok's recent advice to brew the same tea several days in a row is a good way to rule out the effect of the mood (or later recollection) of the day.

Ironically, the brick I (blind) bought is the 2008 tezhi fuzhuan, not the heichazhuan. I noticed King Tea Mall had a bunch of XY teas and asked them to recommend one to try other offerings. That's the one they suggested and the price was easy to deal with-- hopefully I like it. What did you think of the samples you tried?

I like the ones I've tried! More so than similarly (or slightly higher) priced BSX stuff, Xiangyi's flavor profile seems to be closer to Cofco's "dark tea garden" teas than slightly more smoky BSX (e.g. BSX's "Classic 1953" recipe).

Funny you should mention the tezhi fuzhuan, actually put down an order for the 2013 version myself just yesterday. Blind buy here too, but having had some of their stuff from around the same age I doubt it's gonna be a dud.