What is all the fuss around Red / Yellow / Green Marks?

Puerh and other heicha
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Balthazar
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Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:30 am

Acc Hugh wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:48 pm
I think u meant these products from 1950s-1970s.

[...]

Most obvious craze to these products are due to their material used. GuShu material.
Do you have a source for this? Lei Pingyang mentions in his "普洱茶记" (p. 195 of my copy) that for the Green Mark arbor (乔木) material from old gardens came to be replaced by shrub/bush (灌木) material from new gardens already in the 60s.
勐海 绿 印 圆 茶 绿 印 圆 茶 , 也是 勐海 茶厂 20 世纪 四 五十 年代 这一 时间 段 上 的 茶 品 , 稍有 不同 的 是 , 其 “ 八 中 茶 ” 标记 , “ 茶 ” 字 为 绿色 , 且 所 用 材料 不 似 红 印 取之于 勐 腊 , 而 用 的 是 勐海 之 茶 普 。 作为 “ 红印 ” 的 姊妹 产品 , “ 绿 印 ” 也 分 “ 早期 ” 和 “ 后期 ” 。 早期 绿 印 圆 茶 也 叫 “ 绿 印 甲乙 圆 茶 ” 或 “ 蓝 印 甲乙 ” 。 绿 印 甲乙 圆 茶 原本 要 分 甲级 和 乙级 两种 , 后 因 收购 茶菁 非 最优 者 不 收 , 所以 再无 分级 的 必要 , 翻 海 茶厂 的 茶 品 , 分 “ 红印 ” 和 “ 绿 印 ” 已经 足够 。 但是 , 由于 大批 绿 印 茶 饼 的 外包 纸 , 事先 已经 印刷 完毕 , 而且 都 以 甲 、 乙 等级 字样 印刷 , 因此 只 好用 蓝色 墨水 , 将 甲 、 乙 字样 涂 盖 掉 。 为此 , 有人 遂将 此类 茶 品 称为 “ 蓝 印 普洱 圓 茶 ” 。 有意思 的 是 , 由于 经过 了 四五 十年 的 陈 化 , 这些 涂 盖 甲 、 乙 字样 的 蓝 墨水 已 渐渐 褪色 , 迄今 已 露出 甲 、 乙 字样 , 于是 引出 了 谁 好 谁 次之 争 , 有人 信奉 甲 , 有人 信奉 乙 , 莫衷一是 。 早期 绿 印 , 无论 在 陈 香 、 樟 香 、 滋味 、 茶 气 等 方面 都是 一流 的 , 可 在 市面上 , 价格 却 仅为 红印 圆 茶 的 一半 , 是 收藏家 们 的 最佳 选择 之一 。 后期 绿 印 , 其 指向 是 20 世纪 五 六十 年代 勐海 茶厂 所 产 的 大 批量 普洱茶 。 后期 绿 印 , 茶 品 复杂 , 原因 是 20 世纪 五 六十 年代 , 所有 勐海 茶厂 生 产 的 次级 圆 茶 , 都 以 绿 印 为 标志 。 但又 由于 每年 茶菁 品质 和 各 地区 不同 的 茶 性 , 又 使其 虽然 外包 标记 统一 , 品质 却 存在 很大 的 差异 。 尤其 是 到 了 20 世纪 60 年代 以后 , 新 茶园 的 灌木 新 茶树 取代 了 老 茶园 的 乔木 老 茶 树 , 品质 更 异 。 在 后期 绿 印 中 , 有 一部分 茶 品 是 用 新 树 茶菁 制造 , 但 仍 以 生 茶 方式 制造 , 被 称为 “ 绿 印 尾 ” , 也是 普洱茶 极品 中 的 “ 另类 ” , 典藏 价值 极高 。
Perhaps if assuming that all arbor trees were "gushu" the claim that these famous productions were (at least early on) gushu productions is easier to accept at face value, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Maybe someone wants to do a cake split from Best Tea House. Only around USD 30k!
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LeoFox
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Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:21 am

Balthazar wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:30 am
Acc Hugh wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:48 pm
I think u meant these products from 1950s-1970s.

[...]

Most obvious craze to these products are due to their material used. GuShu material.
Do you have a source for this? Lei Pingyang mentions in his "普洱茶记" (p. 195 of my copy) that for the Green Mark arbor (乔木) material from old gardens came to be replaced by shrub/bush (灌木) material from new gardens already in the 60s.
勐海 绿 印 圆 茶 绿 印 圆 茶 , 也是 勐海 茶厂 20 世纪 四 五十 年代 这一 时间 段 上 的 茶 品 , 稍有 不同 的 是 , 其 “ 八 中 茶 ” 标记 , “ 茶 ” 字 为 绿色 , 且 所 用 材料 不 似 红 印 取之于 勐 腊 , 而 用 的 是 勐海 之 茶 普 。 作为 “ 红印 ” 的 姊妹 产品 , “ 绿 印 ” 也 分 “ 早期 ” 和 “ 后期 ” 。 早期 绿 印 圆 茶 也 叫 “ 绿 印 甲乙 圆 茶 ” 或 “ 蓝 印 甲乙 ” 。 绿 印 甲乙 圆 茶 原本 要 分 甲级 和 乙级 两种 , 后 因 收购 茶菁 非 最优 者 不 收 , 所以 再无 分级 的 必要 , 翻 海 茶厂 的 茶 品 , 分 “ 红印 ” 和 “ 绿 印 ” 已经 足够 。 但是 , 由于 大批 绿 印 茶 饼 的 外包 纸 , 事先 已经 印刷 完毕 , 而且 都 以 甲 、 乙 等级 字样 印刷 , 因此 只 好用 蓝色 墨水 , 将 甲 、 乙 字样 涂 盖 掉 。 为此 , 有人 遂将 此类 茶 品 称为 “ 蓝 印 普洱 圓 茶 ” 。 有意思 的 是 , 由于 经过 了 四五 十年 的 陈 化 , 这些 涂 盖 甲 、 乙 字样 的 蓝 墨水 已 渐渐 褪色 , 迄今 已 露出 甲 、 乙 字样 , 于是 引出 了 谁 好 谁 次之 争 , 有人 信奉 甲 , 有人 信奉 乙 , 莫衷一是 。 早期 绿 印 , 无论 在 陈 香 、 樟 香 、 滋味 、 茶 气 等 方面 都是 一流 的 , 可 在 市面上 , 价格 却 仅为 红印 圆 茶 的 一半 , 是 收藏家 们 的 最佳 选择 之一 。 后期 绿 印 , 其 指向 是 20 世纪 五 六十 年代 勐海 茶厂 所 产 的 大 批量 普洱茶 。 后期 绿 印 , 茶 品 复杂 , 原因 是 20 世纪 五 六十 年代 , 所有 勐海 茶厂 生 产 的 次级 圆 茶 , 都 以 绿 印 为 标志 。 但又 由于 每年 茶菁 品质 和 各 地区 不同 的 茶 性 , 又 使其 虽然 外包 标记 统一 , 品质 却 存在 很大 的 差异 。 尤其 是 到 了 20 世纪 60 年代 以后 , 新 茶园 的 灌木 新 茶树 取代 了 老 茶园 的 乔木 老 茶 树 , 品质 更 异 。 在 后期 绿 印 中 , 有 一部分 茶 品 是 用 新 树 茶菁 制造 , 但 仍 以 生 茶 方式 制造 , 被 称为 “ 绿 印 尾 ” , 也是 普洱茶 极品 中 的 “ 另类 ” , 典藏 价值 极高 。
Perhaps if assuming that all arbor trees were "gushu" the claim that these famous productions were (at least early on) gushu productions is easier to accept at face value, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Maybe someone wants to do a cake split from Best Tea House. Only around USD 30k!
My understanding is that more modern tea agriculture practices were developed by the British in assam in the mid to late 19th century , which then spread out to other places like Japan. At what point did it spread to yunnan? Prior to its implementation, I'm guessing the tea would be from arbors and/or old trees as Tai di cha concept would not be even available. Did implementation occur during roc or later in late 50s after ccp consolidated control in yunnan?
DailyTX
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Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:57 am

I don’t have any reference, just information obtained from tea shop visiting in the past. Tai Di Cha started around the Chinese Cultural Revolution due to needs for increase in production and easier for staff to pick the tea. Puerh prior to 1990s are a mixed of tai di cha and arbors depended on what’s available as puerh was not a high end tea back then.
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Balthazar
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Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:57 am

@LeoFox, @DailyTX

From Zhang Jinghong's "Puer Tea" (second endnote from intro chapter):
According to the Mengla County Annals (EBMCA 1994: 226), terrace tea planting startet in the 1960s. But in Yiwu, many farmers told me that larger-scale terrace tea planting commenced in the 1970s and 1980s.
Zhang seems to lend more credence to her Yiwu farmer sources than the Mengla County Annals, for in the actual chapter text to which that endnote is connected she writes that taidi style cultivation "had begun in Yunnan only in the late 1970s and the early 1980s". The "larger-scale" qualifier from the endnote could mean that smaller terrace plantations popped up before that too, though.

In any case, I think it's safe to assume that arbor/forest material dominated these productions. What I wondered was wheter or not the gushu claim is frequently made too and/or not disputed among those who have been fortunate enough to try these teas. (All gushu is arbor tea, but not all arbor tea is gushu). But I may be splitting hairs here, and if a liberal interpretation of gushu as anything with more than a century behind it is used it is perhaps not unreasonable to assume much of the material would indeed qualify for that label.
Acc Hugh
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Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:55 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:30 am
Acc Hugh wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:48 pm
I think u meant these products from 1950s-1970s.

[...]

Most obvious craze to these products are due to their material used. GuShu material.
Do you have a source for this? Lei Pingyang mentions in his "普洱茶记" (p. 195 of my copy) that for the Green Mark arbor (乔木) material from old gardens came to be replaced by shrub/bush (灌木) material from new gardens already in the 60s.
It is true products from this era have been filled with half-truths and abundant guesswork. But over so many years, such historical backtracking have been thoroughly traced by many and information posted publicly:
https://www.ryctea.com/newsinfo/1415329.html

plus auction houses deciding their worth:
http://lhauction.com.hk/tc/catalogue/search (search 綠印 for green mark)
Balthazar wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:30 am
Perhaps if assuming that all arbor trees were "gushu" the claim that these famous productions were (at least early on) gushu productions is easier to accept at face value, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.
Got to agree the pu'er industry has muddled categorization of pu'er material so much that it benefits marketing aspects more than what consumers need to know to make a purchasing choice. Like how sales of every type is:"if u cant convince them, confuse them".

Lets keep it simple.
1. Arbor(乔木) is a variety of Camellia Sinensis, it sprouts from a seed.
2. Cultivated variety(灌木) of Camellia Sinensis; through stem-cutting, grafting, etc.

a. Ancient Tree(arbor variety) aka 古树: 100 years - thousands years, usual big obvious trees, with thick trunks sparsely located in the tea garden.
Ancient tree further sub-categorized into 3 types: High Canopy(高杆), Chopped n regrown (台乂),Largest trees around(茶王树,茶皇后树,茶公主,or whatever royalty names they wanna give)

b. Small Trees(arbor variety) aka 荒山: 1 - 99 years

c. Terraced plantations aka 台梯/台地: there have been many episodes of such plantations over many different periods due to government order, war, post-war, pu'er industry craze.
- terraced (arbor variety)
- terraced (cultivated variety)
Balthazar wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:30 am
Maybe someone wants to do a cake split from Best Tea House. Only around USD 30k!
You have good taste eyeing red mark, the oldest of all marks, very likely GuShu material implied in many articles.
It seems consistent to earlier era's production by private tea factories(号级茶): 鼎兴号,陈云号,敬昌号,etc. These are definitely GuShu material.
Last edited by Acc Hugh on Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Balthazar
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Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:01 am

@Acc Hugh: Thanks for the links. As far as I could see (from a quick glimpse), there was no explicit mention of gushu in any of them, including the auction listings. But perhaps this is something those "in the know" do not need explicitly stated to know for themselves ;)
Acc Hugh
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Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:38 pm

Balthazar wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:01 am
Acc Hugh: Thanks for the links. As far as I could see (from a quick glimpse), there was no explicit mention of gushu in any of them, including the auction listings. But perhaps this is something those "in the know" do not need explicitly stated to know for themselves ;)
https://m.puercn.com/cybkgh/7944.html

"50年代红印圆茶红印圆茶又称现代普洱贡茶,以六大茶山之一的易武正山古茶树为原料,使用传统制茶工艺制作,历经60年岁月陈化,茶面油光、条索饱满、茶汤厚酽,有迷人的野樟香,回甘好。 .聚-宝-龙均有收藏。"

"黄印是以澜沧江两岸茶山300年以上的古树茶为原料"
"黄印:“云南七子饼”,其实就是现代绿印普洱茶茶品,是由勐海茶厂50年代未所产的,被称之为“现代拼配茶菁的普洱茶品始祖”的“黄印圆茶”。60年代以“黄印圆茶”之拼配工艺。勐海茶厂推出了中茶牌圆茶的替代品,“云南七子饼”。在“七子饼”中,以勐海茶厂生产的“红带七子饼”和“黄印七子饼”最具代表性。"

"蓝印: 绿印圆茶系勐海茶厂40~50年代制作的茶品,是“红印”的姊妹产品。勐海绿印圆茶有早期和后期之分, 早期绿印圆茶也叫“绿印甲乙圆茶”或“蓝印甲乙圆茶”,早期绿印无论在陈香、樟香、滋味、茶气等方面都是一流的。"
"后期绿印其指是50~60年代勐海茶厂所产的大批量普洱茶。有一部分茶品,是用新树茶菁制造,但仍以生茶方式制造,被称之为“绿印尾”,在普洱茶极品中,有极高的典藏价值。"

http://lhauction.com.hk

百年 宋聘號‧紅標 1 piece 310g


五十年代 大字紅印青餅 1 piece 334g


五十年代 甲級、乙級藍印青餅‧乾倉 2 pieces 653g


五十年代 藍印鐵餅 1 piece 334g


六十年代 八中黃印青餅 7 pieces: 326g、309g、325g、304g、326g、314g、306g
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