How to explain pleasant bitterness

[Auxilium]

I was recently talking with a friend about how they should try sheng. One of my reasonings being the complexity and the interesting factor of pleasant bitterness in good young sheng. They looked at me with a puzzled look and questioned me on how something could be bitter and pleasant I began to try and explain but I could not really find a way to explain it. So my question is how would you explain pleasant bitterness to someone? (I should specify that I live in America where it seems many people don't enjoy bitter things except for the occasional hoppy beer)

[OCTO]

I think i would call it astringency if it’s calming my pleasant. But if the tea bites the tongue in a bad way.... it’s bitter! Hahahahaha.....

[mbanu]

The problem is less the flavor and more the language. When people hear "bitter" they think "bitter struggle", even if they like things like dark chocolate, black coffee, and IPAs or gin & tonics.

So the thing to do is to find bitter things that they like that they most likely do not use the word bitter to describe.

[Auxilium]

Thanks for the responses @OCTO and @mbanu!

That's a good point about astringency vs bitterness!!

That's a really good point about the language we use about bitterness!

Thank you both!!

[polezaivsani]

I've been thinking about this part of the palate a lot lately too. And as others pointed out, too decided on calling the needed and useful amount of it as astringency or acidity. That's what gives the soup a more pronounced body and contrasts with the other parts of the palate. More nuances and interplay between the parts of the profile make for all the more interesting experience. When there's too much of it, you immediately call it bitter, in an unpleasant way.

[TheEssenceofTea]

Bitterness and astringency are two separate sensations. Astringency is more of a drying, rough sensation - a wine that is high in tannins or a banana peel is astringent for example, but not necessarily bitter.
Bitterness can be found in a lemon rind or hops, that aren't necessarily astringent.

These are separated in Chinese also, with 苦 (ku - bitter) and 涩 (se - astringent). One doesn't become the other depending on whether it's pleasant or not. They're distinct, though can often appear together.

[Bok]

A tea maker once said to me not long ago: tea needs to be bitter, otherwise it’s not tea.

It’s about a balance of bitter, sweet and other properties a given tea can have. But inherently tea leaves are bitter.

Another good example is ku gua, or bitter gourd, a vegetable frequently found in Asia. It’s quite bitter, but if balanced right with other ingredients it becomes a lovely, delicacy.

[Auxilium]

@Bok you make a wonderful point, the pleasant bitterness is not pleasant because it's a different sort of bitterness but because of how it's balanced with the other notes, once again it appears to me balance is the key to all things, thank you for the wise words from the tea maker and thank you for your insight!

[pantry]

Is the pleasant bitterness you're referring to the kind that turns into a subtle sweet taste?

In Cantonese, there are two types of bitterness. 苦 (ku) and 甘 (gan). Ku is the pure bitter taste, and Gan refers to the bitter taste that turns into sweetness after the bitterness subsides. For me, 100% pure chocolate is ku, and bitter melons are gan. Gan (甘) in Mandarin and Japanese only means sweet though. I think that may be why people use the term "Hui Gan" (returned sweetness) when referring to tea--it seems a bit redundant in Cantonese

You cannot mistake astringency for anything else if you take a bite of an unripe persimmon. It's that sensation that makes you wanting to deep cleanse your tongue. Though astringency in tea is never that bad

[Victoria]

Bitterness and astringency are two separate sensations. Astringency is more of a drying, rough sensation - a wine that is high in tannins or a banana peel is astringent for example, but not necessarily bitter.
Bitterness can be found in a lemon rind or hops, that aren't necessarily astringent.

These are separated in Chinese also, with 苦 (ku - bitter) and 涩 (se - astringent). One doesn't become the other depending on whether it's pleasant or not. They're distinct, though can often appear together.

+1 Astringency is a drying contracting sensation, while bitterness is a taste on a spectrum. Fernet Branca is a bitter liquor, an acquired taste, very bitter for some, perfect for others. It is a wild mountain digestive, not really bitter if you grew up with it like I did. I seem to enjoy bitter flavors overall, like some enjoy very hot peppers.

[OCTO]

Bitterness and astringency are two separate sensations. Astringency is more of a drying, rough sensation - a wine that is high in tannins or a banana peel is astringent for example, but not necessarily bitter.
Bitterness can be found in a lemon rind or hops, that aren't necessarily astringent.

These are separated in Chinese also, with 苦 (ku - bitter) and 涩 (se - astringent). One doesn't become the other depending on whether it's pleasant or not. They're distinct, though can often appear together.

+1 that puts everything in context.. hahaha....

[StoneLadle]

Is the pleasant bitterness you're referring to the kind that turns into a subtle sweet taste?

In Cantonese, there are two types of bitterness. 苦 (ku) and 甘 (gan). Ku is the pure bitter taste, and Gan refers to the bitter taste that turns into sweetness after the bitterness subsides. For me, 100% pure chocolate is ku, and bitter melons are gan. Gan (甘) in Mandarin and Japanese only means sweet though. I think that may be why people use the term "Hui Gan" (returned sweetness) when referring to tea--it seems a bit redundant in Cantonese

You cannot mistake astringency for anything else if you take a bite of an unripe persimmon. It's that sensation that makes you wanting to deep cleanse your tongue. Though astringency in tea is never that bad

Cantonese... it's "Foo" and "Kam"

[StoneLadle]

I was recently talking with a friend about how they should try sheng. One of my reasonings being the complexity and the interesting factor of pleasant bitterness in good young sheng. They looked at me with a puzzled look and questioned me on how something could be bitter and pleasant I began to try and explain but I could not really find a way to explain it. So my question is how would you explain pleasant bitterness to someone? (I should specify that I live in America where it seems many people don't enjoy bitter things except for the occasional hoppy beer)

sometimes it's better to just brew and share then talk...

but you've already answered the question yourself... Beer is exactly that.. pleasant bitterness... crispness, dryness, hoppiness, happiness....

[StoneLadle]

...i mean, life is always paradoxical,

coffee is bitter and i like it with sugar and cream, can't stand it black on it's own... but i love dark oversteeped Pu Erh and Liu Bao...

and i also like English Breakfast Tea with milk and sugar...

[Balthazar]

...i mean, life is always paradoxical,

coffee is bitter and i like it with sugar and cream, can't stand it black on it's own... but i love dark oversteeped Pu Erh and Liu Bao...

and i also like English Breakfast Tea with milk and sugar...

Doesn't that make sense though? Liubao is rarely bitter (particularly the most common mid- to higher fermentation types), and my impression (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that you mostly drink aged puer stored in Malaysia, which will generally speaking also be less bitter than something very young or stored in cooler/drier climates