How to explain pleasant bitterness

[StoneLadle]

Doesn't that make sense though? Liubao is rarely bitter (particularly the most common mid- to higher fermentation types), and my impression (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that you mostly drink aged puer stored in Malaysia, which will generally speaking also be less bitter than something very young or stored in cooler/drier climates

Liu Bao is prized in my family for it's betel-ness and yes i guess medicinal bitterness that is not unpleasant, or 'Kam' in Cantonese, and equal to flavour is texture... they work together... and this also holds true in what we look for in Pu Erh...

The young sheng for me anyways, is a taste and spit kind of deal. It's way too harsh on my palate, throat, tummy and head. We taste it to see how it may turn out later and if it fits, we buy , store and forget about it for a few years. That's how it's been since we realised the old stash was gonna run out if we don't back it up with rolling stock. That said, there's been some notable young cakes from 10 years ago that are starting to turn and I just tasted 3 of them in the past week... the outright astringent green-ness is just starting to morph into camphor on the nose and the liquid turning a deep amber with texture/body starting to develop. Probably stored a bit too dry in my old bedroom and I've moved them downstairs into the dry food pantry where it's a bit sweatier. Let's see how they turn out in 4-5 years...

Most Malaysian Pu Erh was brought here in the last 30 years or so from either Hong Kong or Taiwan. For me, the basic aim is to get these rough raw cakes to mature into tasty, decadent cups/bowls of deep red velvety-ness and earthy root-beer like yummy-ness. And it cannot happen without humidity and temperature. Like, good luck with recreating a Burgundy cellar in Malaysia...

And finally, raw young sheng always leaves my mouth feeling like an abalone brush had just done a number on gums and tongue... but some, some... and they are rare, are just okay to have a few cups of...

[Balthazar]

Liu Bao is prized in my family for it's betel-ness and yes i guess medicinal bitterness that is not unpleasant, or 'Kam' in Cantonese, and equal to flavour is texture... they work together... and this also holds true in what we look for in Pu Erh...

The young sheng for me anyways, is a taste and spit kind of deal. It's way too harsh on my palate, throat, tummy and head. We taste it to see how it may turn out later and if it fits, we buy , store and forget about it for a few years. That's how it's been since we realised the old stash was gonna run out if we don't back it up with rolling stock. That said, there's been some notable young cakes from 10 years ago that are starting to turn and I just tasted 3 of them in the past week... the outright astringent green-ness is just starting to morph into camphor on the nose and the liquid turning a deep amber with texture/body starting to develop. Probably stored a bit too dry in my old bedroom and I've moved them downstairs into the dry food pantry where it's a bit sweatier. Let's see how they turn out in 4-5 years...

Most Malaysian Pu Erh was brought here in the last 30 years or so from either Hong Kong or Taiwan. For me, the basic aim is to get these rough raw cakes to mature into tasty, decadent cups/bowls of deep red velvety-ness and earthy root-beer like yummy-ness. And it cannot happen without humidity and temperature. Like, good luck with recreating a Burgundy cellar in Malaysia...

And finally, raw young sheng always leaves my mouth feeling like an abalone brush had just done a number on gums and tongue... but some, some... and they are rare, are just okay to have a few cups of...

Thanks for expanding on that. Also, we're in total agreement about young puer and the deliciousness of liubao.

My point was simply that I don't find it strange all at all that you react differently to coffee or even oversteeped English Breakfast compared to liubao and aged puer. It seemed rather consistent to me

[klepto]

I'm learning that bitterness can enhance the sweetness of your tea. Especially if it comes in waves. Some shengs I've had would put the bitterness up front and the aftertaste would be delicious and sweet. Othertimes the bitterness transforms into sweetness. I enjoy all of it.

[StoneLadle]

Thanks for expanding on that. Also, we're in total agreement about young puer and the deliciousness of liubao.

My point was simply that I don't find it strange all at all that you react differently to coffee or even oversteeped English Breakfast compared to liubao and aged puer. It seemed rather consistent to me

..which is what makes the pleasant bitterness of Pu Erh etc so beguiling!

Like, good raw sheng is bittersweet in a good way, but it's the overall roughness and harshness of the wild tannins just doing my mouth, tummy and head in...

...coffee for me at least, needs sweetening of some sort, as does English Breakfast (but this at a push i'm good with it black, unlike coffee, simply because it's tea...)

Tea is just good in that sense

[pedant]

first, to be clear, bitterness is a taste, and tastes happen in the mouth.

different chemicals can be interpreted as bitter. some bitter chemicals also have a fragrance to them which may or may not be pleasant.
the pleasantness of a bitter taste in a flavor context depends on what is causing this bitter taste, but more importantly, it depends on what else is there along with it.

flavor is a sensory experience combining taste (mostly in the mouth), fragrance (mostly in the nasal cavity), and chemesthesis (mouth, nose, and throat).

bitter taste receptors likely evolved as a defense against ingesting toxins (such as those found in plants). for example, many toxic alkaloids are intensely bitter. tasting something bitter is an arresting sensation for good reason. it's saved countless lives over the history of our planet. it grabs your attention, and that's why it can be good in more benign contexts.

like others said, bitterness can be used to round out a flavor impression. for example, it can be used to counteract excessive sweetness.
but more generally, we like interesting things, and a balanced mixture of pleasant and unpleasant components is interesting.

it works the same way in perfume and fragrance design. all those designer colognes aren't just sweet, fruity, happy things. blenders also include putrid, attention-grabbing components.

flowers are like this too. real flower fragrance often has garbage-like things going on in the aroma. that's why you keep going back for another whiff.

[StoneLadle]

@pedant
After all, we are soaking dried leaves in hot water and drinking the result ...

The same can be gotten in nature, from a stream that runs through a forest or jungle...

And like how smoke warns you your house is burning down but in another context can make you salivate over a tuocha... Or some burnt ends...

[klepto]

All this bitterness talk has me looking for Lao Ban Zhang factory raw puerh cakes

[Balthazar]

All this bitterness talk has me looking for Lao Ban Zhang factory raw puerh cakes

Found by the billionaire!

[klepto]

All this bitterness talk has me looking for Lao Ban Zhang factory raw puerh cakes

Found by the billionaire!

Jinkies, sadly I'm not a billionaire I just noticed the price
Now I'm looking for cakes nearby.

[StoneLadle]

@klepto

It's your fault now... Not just @OCTO's...

IMG_20200828_183853.jpg (319.79 KiB) Viewed 4293 times

IMG_20200828_183804.jpg (323.51 KiB) Viewed 4293 times

Been meaning to check on this cake from 2005... A hefty 400grammer...

IMG_20200828_184632.jpg (316.15 KiB) Viewed 4293 times

It's pretty 'kam' to me!!

[Balthazar]

@StoneLadle: Does 班章 here refer to laobanzhang, xinbanzhang or some other banzhang village? Also, what's you're impression of the 昱申源/Isowis teas in general (they're a Malaysian brand, yes?)

I'd love to try some...

[klepto]

Per my looking last night: Any thoughts
https://kingteamall.com/products/2018-f ... 3142733927
https://kingteamall.com/products/2011-x ... 4331&_ss=r
https://kingteamall.com/products/2009-x ... c5b7&_ss=r

I'm leaning towards the fuhai ban zhang but not sure how 'close' it is to the Lao Ban Zhang villiage

[klepto]

klepto

It's your fault now... Not just OCTO's...

Now you are just teasing me

[StoneLadle]

StoneLadle: Does 班章 here refer to laobanzhang, xinbanzhang or some other banzhang village? Also, what's you're impression of the 昱申源/Isowis teas in general (they're a Malaysian brand, yes?)

I'd love to try some...

Your knowledge of Isowis is great indeed. This was a gift from a friend and I gladly accepted it back in 2010 and then years later it's still woody and lively but the texture is beginning to show. Perhaps another 5 years but I'll keep trimming the edges as they ripen...

I dont know anything about this cake other than its from the Ban Zhang area and picked from wild old trees. And at 13 years stored here in various places before ending up under my old bed for a decade and I found it during some tea hunting, I'm glad I did!...

It's smokey but tasty. Not too dry, enough smoothness to promise more.

Happy to send some out but can you check if you can receive tea from Malaysia??

[StoneLadle]

Per my looking last night: Any thoughts
https://kingteamall.com/products/2018-f ... 3142733927
https://kingteamall.com/products/2011-x ... 4331&_ss=r
https://kingteamall.com/products/2009-x ... c5b7&_ss=r

I'm leaning towards the fuhai ban zhang but not sure how 'close' it is to the Lao Ban Zhang villiage

Needs a few more years I reckon this... A cake that I would break up and store under stress to accelerate fermentation. It can take a lot of punishment and yield rewards...