Buying Pu'erh for the long haul

Puerh and other heicha
User avatar
mrmopu
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 am
Location: Blacksburg Va.
Contact:

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:14 pm

Thommes,

These are both made with material from 2004. Today that material is 16 years old.
1) 2011 XG Jin Se Chuan Qi.
2) 2011 XG Huan Jin Yun

DaYi did some aged material in this one.
2015 Chuan Qi.

There are some more but these stand out the most to me. All three are on the KTM site and about as cheap or cheaper than any other vendor I know of unless you venture into TaoBao or such.

For a ready to drink younger one this is supposed to have some pedigreed material from the BuLang range in it.
2018 XG Fei Tai Da Yun. Easy to drink now.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:59 pm

EarthMonkey wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:38 pm
What can be the better reward for tea drinker than feeling that somebody offered you an ultra expensive tea ?
That's how Chinese marketing is set....not only tea. It is applied on many things here.
User avatar
wave_code
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 am

theres been a bit of talk here of factory vs boutique cakes... as someone who doesn't drink much sheng I tend to keep an older holy flame brick and maybe a couple other things on hand and that covers me. shu means you are basically stuck with factory cakes anyway minus a couple places like YS, and the small batch shu I have seen a bit of has been super expensive and I haven't felt so compelled to try it yet to see if it is worth it (maybe I'm missing out?). but for sheng, especially western drinkers, there seems to be an aversion to factory cakes over small producers, tea from exclusively this mountain or that mountain. while particular years/batches can be better than others, different factories differ in quality or recipe, I don't understand the avoidance - if those teas weren't any good and weren't time tested would Pu really have even gained the status it now has? if the material and quality control has remained decent it really makes me wonder how much boutique sheng really is as special as it claims and if people's tastebuds being fooled by packaging/price point/vendor association. of course some of it can also be you pay a premium to be part of a potentially interesting experiment on the ground floor, better quality control, different standards, so on, and that can be ok, I don't mean to just out and out dismiss small producers.

doing a quick look around it seems like you can rather easily find more standard release cakes from say Xiaguan, Haiwan, etc, from 2010 or even a bit older anywhere from $20-50ish. maybe they haven't had the best or most characterful storage depending on the vendor, but if you are planning to keep them another 5-10 years or more anyway you have time to try and push them one way or another, and/or to pick up even younger factory cakes for even cheaper. I don't know how it works for large collectors if they can contract out smaller storage, but I imagine you could probably pick up a few tongs of new inexpensive factory cakes and get a few years of say HK storage if you wanted for the same price as a couple of fancy single mountain cakes?

the other thing to think about is how often do you want/need to drink your best or super high quality tea, and by what standard? I have my nice teas I buy in the quantity I can afford when they come up, so I try and savor them. sometimes even when I am in the mood for one I still might not even have the time to drink them because I have too much going on and it would be a waste to not give them proper attention or I can't spend every afternoon fumbling around half tea drunk,, so things wind up lasting even longer than I think. unless maybe you are retired now or in some sort of similar situation think how much time you'll actually consistently have to drink as you imagine. also what has become my favorite tea and that I drink the most isn't particularly special by most standards- its good enough, its very affordable so I can buy it and keep it around in large quantity, and it serves as a baseline for everything else I drink. having that reasonable baseline to go back to or having had hundreds of times and seeing it change very slowly over a bit of time, in different pots, different seasons, has taught me more than trying samples of tons of different teas, and running out of this modest tea would be more of a loss to me or be more difficult to replace I think than any other more unique or special options I have around.
thommes
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:11 pm
Location: Central Ohio

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:12 am

EarthMonkey wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:29 pm
If you've got it in you to sing Hail to the Victors, I think I could find a few root beer samples to send you. :lol:
I had to look up the song. I'm the biggest Michigan fan!!!! Not really. Not much into sports. However, the son does go to THE OSU.
thommes
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:11 pm
Location: Central Ohio

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:16 am

debunix wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:19 pm
I'm having a lot of fun with my soda stream and various teas.....sparkling sencha, sparkling oolongs, sparkling gyokuro; and I probably should be playing with sparkling herbal infusions as well. Hibiscus for tart fruity notes, hydrangea and licorice for sweet, citrus zest, cinnamon, cloves, cardamom....possibilities are endless. I probably should order some sarsaparilla root to play with too!
I was wondering if someone had one. We were gifted a soda stream many years ago and used it for several years. The cooling system on the water cooler gave out, (still good for tea) and interest has waned. That and diabetes really has the soda stream machine gathering dust. I started using flavored stevia drops and still do, but seldom with the soda stream. Interesting that you use if for tea. Can you share details?
User avatar
Rickpatbrown
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:10 pm
Location: State College, PA

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:50 am

I really appreciate everyones input on this thread. It has sparked a lot of thought for me. I think my major take away is that I am NOT going to charge forward and buy lots of young sheng.

When I read about collectors who have amassed a lifetimes worth of tea, I can see my future. There's a point were you have enough, but if you bought stuff that isnt good or is aging poorly, than it was really a waste of space, time and money.

For now, I will buy a couple young cakes. Maybe a 7542 and one or two boutique cakes. I will see how they age for a year or two in my pumidor. If I like the results, I'll carefully add more.

In the mean time, I will look for high quality examples from different areas, processing an storing. I will focus more on learning what each has to offer, rather than aging my own.

No matter what, it will be good to know if my storage conditions are good for tea. If it turns cakes bad, I need to know this so I only keep a few on hand, drinking them before they go off.

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:42 am

wave_code wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 am
shu means you are basically stuck with factory cakes anyway minus a couple places like YS
Well, I think it depends how much time you spend searching and dedicate your self to shu. I think is quite wide offer even on internet these days.

"Xiaguan, Haiwan, etc, from 2010 or even a bit older anywhere from $20-50ish" ....20$ cake will have material of 3$ approx , so can be sold wholesale for 5$ so vendors have interest in dealing with this tea ( 15$ possible profit ) . Some very cheap maocha from LC or blend of it . The whole point of avoiding the TF products ( at least those new ones ) , is not buying " an orange juice from Coca Cola company " ..which , I believe also has their standards and margins for marketing, expo/exhibitions , share holders, investors, franchise shops or even their own shops ......etc.
Dayi ( Big Profit ..in translation ) ..is the best example of The Puerh Business. ....investment , shares...sure the name speaks for it self ;-)

There is a whole bunch of expenses they have and as far as I can see , the fact that they make it in big volume and have cheaper buying price, doesn't work much in favor of tea drinker.
Of course , private label can have also high margins but if you understand the prices and value of puerh, you can find a vendors / producers who keep it in low mode. ( means u r actually getting much better deal )
The point of drinking " mountains " is the understand and appreciate taste of different areas and production is not made in high volumes.

"pick up a few tongs of new inexpensive factory cakes and get a few years of say HK storage" ..I agree that some new tea is reaching the prices of the aged ones, yet the fact what is in those cakes and what kind of storage they are , has to be considered...if fairly comparing prices. ( not only personal taste preference )
User avatar
debunix
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:27 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:49 pm

thommes wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:16 am
We were gifted a soda stream many years ago and used it for several years. .... Interesting that you use if for tea. Can you share details?
I started a topic for sparkling/carbonated tea here.
User avatar
wave_code
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:26 am

aet wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:42 am
wave_code wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 am
shu means you are basically stuck with factory cakes anyway minus a couple places like YS
Well, I think it depends how much time you spend searching and dedicate your self to shu. I think is quite wide offer even on internet these days.

"Xiaguan, Haiwan, etc, from 2010 or even a bit older anywhere from $20-50ish" ....20$ cake will have material of 3$ approx , so can be sold wholesale for 5$ so vendors have interest in dealing with this tea ( 15$ possible profit ) . Some very cheap maocha from LC or blend of it . The whole point of avoiding the TF products ( at least those new ones ) , is not buying " an orange juice from Coca Cola company " ..which , I believe also has their standards and margins for marketing, expo/exhibitions , share holders, investors, franchise shops or even their own shops ......etc.
Dayi ( Big Profit ..in translation ) ..is the best example of The Puerh Business. ....investment , shares...sure the name speaks for it self ;-)

There is a whole bunch of expenses they have and as far as I can see , the fact that they make it in big volume and have cheaper buying price, doesn't work much in favor of tea drinker.
Of course , private label can have also high margins but if you understand the prices and value of puerh, you can find a vendors / producers who keep it in low mode. ( means u r actually getting much better deal )
The point of drinking " mountains " is the understand and appreciate taste of different areas and production is not made in high volumes.

"pick up a few tongs of new inexpensive factory cakes and get a few years of say HK storage" ..I agree that some new tea is reaching the prices of the aged ones, yet the fact what is in those cakes and what kind of storage they are , has to be considered...if fairly comparing prices. ( not only personal taste preference )
I suppose for me since I'm not much of a sheng drinker its more a case of "good enough for me" since it isn't such a frequent craving and I don't feel the impulse to go so in-depth with it. I have had some very nice samples from small vendors like pu-erh.sk, thetea, so on... just once the sample ran out I didn't really ever feel the need to get a cake of anything in particular for what they cost, rather put my money elsewhere.

I suppose thinking about it more there is a lot of shu out there that isn't at least big-name factories, though for us in the west a lot of specialty vendors focus on sheng, or you have to know how to sift through lots of probably bad to mediocre overpriced teas in gift packaging or marketing wrappers online. My favorite has probably been Chawang's house shu and a Ming Sheng Hao that has some nice smoke. I'm always keen for more suggestions though, particularly those that seem worth putting away for a while. Probably the most pricey I have seen are the Hai Lang Hao and XY. In regards to long term storage its funny because the discussion with sheng is so much about aging towards maturity and how to best due that with storage/time and with shu it tends to be things more like getting rid of funk/fermentation notes from processing/early storage. I've been becoming a very big fan of the lighter "beetle nut" liu baos that offer a little more light and fresh flavors that I tend to associate with sheng once the bitterness fades, and it has made me interested to also seek out light fermentation shu for comparison.
User avatar
aet
Vendor
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Location: Kunming ( China )

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:00 am

wave_code wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:26 am
aet wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:42 am
wave_code wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 am
shu means you are basically stuck with factory cakes anyway minus a couple places like YS
Well, I think it depends how much time you spend searching and dedicate your self to shu. I think is quite wide offer even on internet these days.

"Xiaguan, Haiwan, etc, from 2010 or even a bit older anywhere from $20-50ish" ....20$ cake will have material of 3$ approx , so can be sold wholesale for 5$ so vendors have interest in dealing with this tea ( 15$ possible profit ) . Some very cheap maocha from LC or blend of it . The whole point of avoiding the TF products ( at least those new ones ) , is not buying " an orange juice from Coca Cola company " ..which , I believe also has their standards and margins for marketing, expo/exhibitions , share holders, investors, franchise shops or even their own shops ......etc.
Dayi ( Big Profit ..in translation ) ..is the best example of The Puerh Business. ....investment , shares...sure the name speaks for it self ;-)

There is a whole bunch of expenses they have and as far as I can see , the fact that they make it in big volume and have cheaper buying price, doesn't work much in favor of tea drinker.
Of course , private label can have also high margins but if you understand the prices and value of puerh, you can find a vendors / producers who keep it in low mode. ( means u r actually getting much better deal )
The point of drinking " mountains " is the understand and appreciate taste of different areas and production is not made in high volumes.

"pick up a few tongs of new inexpensive factory cakes and get a few years of say HK storage" ..I agree that some new tea is reaching the prices of the aged ones, yet the fact what is in those cakes and what kind of storage they are , has to be considered...if fairly comparing prices. ( not only personal taste preference )
I suppose for me since I'm not much of a sheng drinker its more a case of "good enough for me" since it isn't such a frequent craving and I don't feel the impulse to go so in-depth with it. I have had some very nice samples from small vendors like pu-erh.sk, thetea, so on... just once the sample ran out I didn't really ever feel the need to get a cake of anything in particular for what they cost, rather put my money elsewhere.

I suppose thinking about it more there is a lot of shu out there that isn't at least big-name factories, though for us in the west a lot of specialty vendors focus on sheng, or you have to know how to sift through lots of probably bad to mediocre overpriced teas in gift packaging or marketing wrappers online. My favorite has probably been Chawang's house shu and a Ming Sheng Hao that has some nice smoke. I'm always keen for more suggestions though, particularly those that seem worth putting away for a while. Probably the most pricey I have seen are the Hai Lang Hao and XY. In regards to long term storage its funny because the discussion with sheng is so much about aging towards maturity and how to best due that with storage/time and with shu it tends to be things more like getting rid of funk/fermentation notes from processing/early storage. I've been becoming a very big fan of the lighter "beetle nut" liu baos that offer a little more light and fresh flavors that I tend to associate with sheng once the bitterness fades, and it has made me interested to also seek out light fermentation shu for comparison.
I suggest in those cases try different areas rather than big factories / brands ( which mostly make everything in Menghai only with changing recipes which , in most cases I believe , is just how much LC cheap material involved in cake ...just in exaggeration, but I guess u got the point ;- )
Lincang / Yongde , Puer ( Simao ) , Menghai ( Bulang, Yiwu ..etc. ) ...those would be my recommendations to sample in different grades (gong ting, 1st grade, huang pian ) , packaging, fermentation depth / processing type in order to get an idea what is shu about.
Try sample loose not packed tea and simple ( like in bamboo ) non branded bricks ( those are the cheapest to press, cao can be almost fully automatic, no need to do any hand shaping ) . There are also some farmers who just pay some factory to ferment their mao cha and then press it with their humble brand.
When brewing, try to make it red/dark red , not just soy sauce pitch black coffee like soup with lots of earthy notes. You can do that after few steepings if you want to learn more about the origin ( if you know how to distinguish ) .
Steeping tea hard is good for finding out some failures , but same as driving car on 1st gear 60km/h up in the hill. It will be noisy , stinky but mechanic will hear if some rattling noise coming out from the engine besides the noise of the engine it self. Same with tea , requires some experience to separate the bad taste which is covered by strong taste of the tea it self.
Post Reply