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Posted: **Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:08 pm**

Frequently, I hear Dark Tea referred to as puer, heicha, black tea, red tea....

How is tea-terminology handled across countries when a style of pressing is basically the same is one thing but can not(?) be called that because it's not from a specific region? (I know this is also a thing with some wine and cheese productions. The product is essentially the same but because it is produced in a different region, it can not be called the same.) I'd love to discuss this more and hear other's thoughts on this topic.

What inspired this was the 2016 Dark tea that I received from Tea of Vietnam / Viet-Tea! What was described when I asked about what 'Dark' meant was the following:

The 2016 cake I sent you is a sheng style tea. It isn't 'wet-piled' it's pressed into cakes after heating like sheng puer, but I cannot really call it puer because it's not from Yunnan.

Here is the pressed cake piece:
The cake itself is VERY dense. Even broken like this it took quite a bit of leverage to break off a piece to use for tea. The piece here is about 28 grams in total.

And then brewing:
Brewed in 200F, 220 ml water, 11g tea, steeped here for 30 seconds. Longer infusions yield a strong bitterness but low astringency (no dry-mouth feel), short infusions are still a bit on the bitter side but softer with a more woody, dark chocolate palette.

Posted: **Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:44 pm**

Plain language is quite helpful for the drinker, but makes marketing more challenging.

Dark tea is moldy tea; the darkness comes from the mold bodies. However, it is moldy-on-purpose, like blue cheese, even if historically it started as moldy-by-accident. Some types of dark tea are quite technical about it, such as modern shou pu'er, while with others the process is a bit like at a lambic brewery, where it's not really clear why doing things this way in this place should make a consistent product, but it does.

For the question of, "Why is it called red tea in China and black tea outside of China?", this is due to the way tea used to be distributed to foreigners. Under the Canton hong system, foreigners were not actually allowed to visit the places where the tea was grown; it arrived at their Canton warehouses pre-blended by the Canton hongs and/or one of the many middlemen that handled the tea before it arrived at its final destination. So actually distinguishing between oolong, black, and dark tea was actually not so easy. At the time it was named, the mechanism for what made one tea different than the other was not really well understood, either, even by the manufacturers; they could make a style of tea consistently, but if you asked what was happening exactly it wasn't really clear. There was originally only one "fermentation" word that was used for both black and dark tea; it was only later that these started to be split, first as people discovered that some tea was exclusively oxidized, causing a backlash where it was decided that any actual fermentation was due to poor handling, and then slowly an understanding that some tea is actually fermented as well and on-purpose rather than simply due to carelessness.

Posted: **Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:30 pm**

mbanu wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:44 pm
Plain language is quite helpful for the drinker, but makes marketing more challenging. Dark tea is moldy tea; the darkness comes from the mold bodies. However, it is moldy-on-purpose, like blue cheese, even if historically it started as moldy-by-accident.

I don't entirely agree. While the category is often associated with wet storage, which can produce mold, heicha (dark tea) doesn't need to moldy at all. It refers mostly to teas that are traditionally "post-fermented", but this post-fermentation can happen with or without wet-piling or wet storage techniques, and with or without the activity of bacteria and fungi (e.g. "dry" stored sheng will age and become dark mainly through enzymatic activity, and may not experience any significant activity of yeasts or fungi as far as I know (I might be wrong though).). And young "raw" teas from the heicha category still belong to this category even if they are not dark, which can be confusing a bit.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:20 am**

The tea categories are:
白茶 - Bái Chá - White Tea
绿茶 - Lǜ Chá - Green Tea
乌龙茶 - Wūlóng Chá - Wulong / Oolong Tea
红茶 - Hóng Chá - Red Tea (in the west it's improperly called black tea, and some vendors just go along with the name)
黑茶 - Hēi Chá - Black Tea (in English it's mostly called dark tea, to avoid confusion with Red Tea (Western black tea) )

You can define Hei Cha, as any tea, which got fermented on a purpose, and as such, Pu'er is a subcategory of Hei Cha, a region specific subcategory.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:28 am**

as Youzi posted here..hope that makes more clear for you.

speak of the name confusion, I have on for you as well.

White puerh tea. - it is often referred to White Tea ( like Yue Guang Bai - Moon light , Da Bai Hao or Bai Mu Dan ) pressed into the cakes. The tea leaf is processed like white tea so no "kill green" step processing ( which is specific for puerh production ) is involved .
Yet, some vendors sell it as a white puerh , maybe because can age ( till certain point I guess before gets ugly bitter ) , because it is getting pressed in cakes / balls , or maybe because is just sounds cool / different / trendy...I don't know.

Also misunderstanding comes from the location. You can buy a white tea from Puer ( Simao ) . So it can be called Puer White Tea , like Mo Jian white tea or other locations.

To that, there is also ongoing discussion about what exactly can be called puerh tea 普洱茶 . Apparently only tea from Yunnan and from 大叶种 big leaf variety , as orthodox tea experts ( mainly from Yunnan claim

. So if you take a small leaf variety from Fujian and process them with kill green like puerh , it still can not be called 普洱茶 )
Funny enough there are some puerh cakes on market ( mostly loa cha ) made in different provinces than Yunnan. Especially in puerh fever when prices were high in Yunnan. ( they call those here a fake puerh ) .
In Jingmai they also have small leaf variety, but probably different small variety so it excludes for the claim of Big Leaf Variety though.;-D

You can also buy puerh from Africa now ...Chinese making there

I've also heard of India and other tea countries attempts , but never tried.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:53 pm**

This is all very fascinating and thank you so much for the detailed replies! I have heard of some of these distinctions before but it can get very confusing with how things are labeled across cultures.

I suspect that a white tea I have is actually a 'white puer' as the leaves look more similar to a puer material than white tea material that I often get in cake form.

Do you think there will ever be a unification of terminology to prevent confusion or are companies too greatly profiting off the misunderstandings to ever consider making that type of adjustment?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:50 pm**

aet wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:28 am
as Youzi posted here..hope that makes more clear for you.

speak of the name confusion, I have on for you as well.

White puerh tea. - it is often referred to White Tea ( like Yue Guang Bai - Moon light , Da Bai Hao or Bai Mu Dan ) pressed into the cakes. The tea leaf is processed like white tea so no "kill green" step processing ( which is specific for puerh production ) is involved .
Yet, some vendors sell it as a white puerh , maybe because can age ( till certain point I guess before gets ugly bitter ) , because it is getting pressed in cakes / balls , or maybe because is just sounds cool / different / trendy...I don't know.

Also misunderstanding comes from the location. You can buy a white tea from Puer ( Simao ) . So it can be called Puer White Tea , like Mo Jian white tea or other locations.

To that, there is also ongoing discussion about what exactly can be called puerh tea 普洱茶 . Apparently only tea from Yunnan and from 大叶种 big leaf variety , as orthodox tea experts ( mainly from Yunnan claim . So if you take a small leaf variety from Fujian and process them with kill green like puerh , it still can not be called 普洱茶 )
Funny enough there are some puerh cakes on market ( mostly loa cha ) made in different provinces than Yunnan. Especially in puerh fever when prices were high in Yunnan. ( they call those here a fake puerh ) .
In Jingmai they also have small leaf variety, but probably different small variety so it excludes for the claim of Big Leaf Variety though.;-D

You can also buy puerh from Africa now ...Chinese making there I've also heard of India and other tea countries attempts , but never tried.

I don't see how white tea from yunnan can be called pu'er. It's not processed as pu'er then it's not pu'er.
Only tea from yunnan province can be called pu'er, there's a law for that in china.

I think those vendors just try to upsell their tea, because yunnan white tea is not famous as Fujian.

Just because something is pressed into a cake it won't be pu'er, neither Heicha.

You can press wulong tea into a cake, then is that suddenly a puer? I don't like vendors adding more confusion into the terminology, just for the sake of selling a bit more tea.

The terminology is quite clear, if some leave out all the fake vendor marketing.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm**

"I don't see how white tea from yunnan can be called pu'er. It's not processed as pu'er then it's not pu'er. "

https://www.adagio.com/masters/yunnan_pu_erh_white.html
https://yunnansourcing.com/collections/ ... ite-pu-erh

This one is even better ...from Fujian ;-DDD
http://www.shangtea.com/white-tea-puerh

"Only tea from yunnan province can be called pu'er, there's a law for that in china. "
can you provide the legit link to that claim please? It can be also in Chinese, I can read that, thanks.
Please provide it with a legit scientific proof from lab / research center.
.... for example. some chem.compound is missing in other tea leafs so tea can not age ,doesn't have a hui gan or gets burned when kill green applied ...or something like that .

"I think those vendors just try to upsell their tea, because yunnan white tea is not famous as Fujian. "
I can agree with that. I believe that's why they stick the "puer" tag with the name, to make it sound more interesting.

"Just because something is pressed into a cake it won't be pu'er, neither Heicha."
I've seen on tea market pressed Shai Hong ( sun dried black / red tea ) called in English Red Puer Tea ;-D

"You can press wulong tea into a cake, then is that suddenly a puer? I don't like vendors adding more confusion into the terminology, just for the sake of selling a bit more tea. "
I also agree with that , yet the terminology is shaping the market and obviously some ridiculous attempts are emerging , like "Gushu coffee" for example.

"The terminology is quite clear, if some leave out all the fake vendor marketing."
In certain scope , yes.
But If you work on tea market like me..you would say ..No

Let's take a Dianhong Golden Threads 金丝 jin si. .....it is very up to vendor （ or even producer） to decide which one is jin si and which is jin ya 金芽.
My last visit in Feng Qing was good masterclass for that. Where 1st factory call the tea jin ya , the other call it jin si , because their jin ya is much more thicker then in previous factory.
Same with other grades , where the ratio of leafs and tips is stated ( like 一芽二叶 " 1tip 2 leafs )..etc. and in combination of shaping them makes the name ( Cui Ming, Mao Feng - the Yunnan one ) , not mentioned the areas where certain claims for the name can be made .
So there is a lots of space / tolerance for the naming as well.

Please note: I do not argue with you . In most of what you say I agree, so take it as an open discussion.
The market is shaped by demands or new offers , that also influencing the naming. It's changing existing ones or new concepts with new names are emerging ..that's not applying to tea only.

You just type in google "white puer" ..and see the "reality" of the tea marketing of 2020. Regular folks in abroad who are not specialist on tea processing , will just follow what vendors say. Vendor who is not professional , or focusing on commercial side rather genuine naming , will follow the market demands , copy the producer's name without asking any questions.

I still believe that good vendor should filter this marketing crap out.

So we can debate and be angry how some people "fake" the names and such.....but that's not gonna erase the reality which is happening now, u know what I mean?

Look , even these guys use this term "White or Pu Erh Tea " although not agree with the marketing strategy which they apply in order to show up on front page of google.

https://www.teasenz.com/chinese-tea/ori ... h-tea.html

They needed to use this term in order to boost their SEO ( because white puerh tea keyword is / was popular search entry at the time ) , yet don't want to loose their credibility from advanced tea drinkers / customers , so had to write long article explaining all that in description ;-DDDD
It's a win win situation for them ....smart marketing!

Other vendors, who know that they sell it under wrong name / label , I'm sure they have their very own moral excuse for doing so. Probably like "the tea is good , so what is the problem " , or " I respect the producer's naming" .....or whatever

Again, please note : not an argue ...open discussion ...cheers

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:28 am**

beyond Pu... I'm also curious about naming and regional distinction/protection as part of the naming, or is Pu Erh he only regionally protected name? For example while Guangxi is the center of Liu Bao production if you had the processing facilities can you make it in Hubei and label it as Liu Bao? Or would you have to just call it hei cha and say it is similar to a certain style? Or can you make QianLiang in Hubei and call it as such?

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:09 am**

wave_code wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:28 am
beyond Pu... I'm also curious about naming and regional distinction/protection as part of the naming, or is Pu Erh he only regionally protected name? For example while Guangxi is the center of Liu Bao production if you had the processing facilities can you make it in Hubei and label it as Liu Bao? Or would you have to just call it hei cha and say it is similar to a certain style? Or can you make QianLiang in Hubei and call it as such?

as per my last info. it has been issued by local ( Yunnan ) authorities back in 2000. But don't have any link handy to source it. That was purely strategical move in order to protect local economy interests , no any other "natural" ( like puerh can not be made from other tea leaf ) reason. But of course it's stated this way. Only " Yunnan Big Variety leaf " statements from some high ranked tea specialists saying: ....THIS IS THE WAY .....;-D

I know people from Shan Xi using Mengku mao cha to make a Hei Cha ....wonderful masterpiece.
I know Fujian people based on Ai Lao Shan making oolong tea and other Fujian type teas ( like Tixiang Black ) ...great job as well!
I know Taiwanese masters making a brilliant oolong tea from Teng Chong ....amazing oolong, I swear !

I'm eager to try African , Indian ,Russian or Japanese puerh. But it's hard to get anything to China now ;-(

Speak of LB , there are names of place of production before that , unless somebody is trying to sell it other way for some profitable reason. What ever way and who ever is trying to protect anything by name , it is not possible. It can be just stated / written, but people will go their way. In China , so famous for copy anything , would be ridiculous having some hopes of that.

So , in my opinion, some law about this...is just a leaf in the air which flies around but nobody is bothered. Some factories might obey this , but private producers will care more about the money they can make with whatever name.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:04 am**

aet wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm
"I don't see how white tea from yunnan can be called pu'er. It's not processed as pu'er then it's not pu'er. "

https://www.adagio.com/masters/yunnan_pu_erh_white.html
https://yunnansourcing.com/collections/ ... ite-pu-erh

This one is even better ...from Fujian ;-DDD
http://www.shangtea.com/white-tea-puerh

"Only tea from yunnan province can be called pu'er, there's a law for that in china. "
can you provide the legit link to that claim please? It can be also in Chinese, I can read that, thanks.
Please provide it with a legit scientific proof from lab / research center.
.... for example. some chem.compound is missing in other tea leafs so tea can not age ,doesn't have a hui gan or gets burned when kill green applied ...or something like that .

"I think those vendors just try to upsell their tea, because yunnan white tea is not famous as Fujian. "
I can agree with that. I believe that's why they stick the "puer" tag with the name, to make it sound more interesting.

"Just because something is pressed into a cake it won't be pu'er, neither Heicha."
I've seen on tea market pressed Shai Hong ( sun dried black / red tea ) called in English Red Puer Tea ;-D

"You can press wulong tea into a cake, then is that suddenly a puer? I don't like vendors adding more confusion into the terminology, just for the sake of selling a bit more tea. "
I also agree with that , yet the terminology is shaping the market and obviously some ridiculous attempts are emerging , like "Gushu coffee" for example.

"The terminology is quite clear, if some leave out all the fake vendor marketing."
In certain scope , yes.
But If you work on tea market like me..you would say ..No
Let's take a Dianhong Golden Threads 金丝 jin si. .....it is very up to vendor （ or even producer） to decide which one is jin si and which is jin ya 金芽.
My last visit in Feng Qing was good masterclass for that. Where 1st factory call the tea jin ya , the other call it jin si , because their jin ya is much more thicker then in previous factory.
Same with other grades , where the ratio of leafs and tips is stated ( like 一芽二叶 " 1tip 2 leafs )..etc. and in combination of shaping them makes the name ( Cui Ming, Mao Feng - the Yunnan one ) , not mentioned the areas where certain claims for the name can be made .
So there is a lots of space / tolerance for the naming as well.

Please note: I do not argue with you . In most of what you say I agree, so take it as an open discussion.
The market is shaped by demands or new offers , that also influencing the naming. It's changing existing ones or new concepts with new names are emerging ..that's not applying to tea only.

You just type in google "white puer" ..and see the "reality" of the tea marketing of 2020. Regular folks in abroad who are not specialist on tea processing , will just follow what vendors say. Vendor who is not professional , or focusing on commercial side rather genuine naming , will follow the market demands , copy the producer's name without asking any questions.

I still believe that good vendor should filter this marketing crap out.

So we can debate and be angry how some people "fake" the names and such.....but that's not gonna erase the reality which is happening now, u know what I mean?

Look , even these guys use this term "White or Pu Erh Tea " although not agree with the marketing strategy which they apply in order to show up on front page of google.

https://www.teasenz.com/chinese-tea/ori ... h-tea.html

They needed to use this term in order to boost their SEO ( because white puerh tea keyword is / was popular search entry at the time ) , yet don't want to loose their credibility from advanced tea drinkers / customers , so had to write long article explaining all that in description ;-DDDD
It's a win win situation for them ....smart marketing!

Other vendors, who know that they sell it under wrong name / label , I'm sure they have their very own moral excuse for doing so. Probably like "the tea is good , so what is the problem " , or " I respect the producer's naming" .....or whatever

Again, please note : not an argue ...open discussion ...cheers

Here are two links for the news about the law introduced in 2008.:
Chinese, with the specification: http://www.puercn.com/puerchazs/peczs/17019.html
English, news article: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2 ... 286028.htm

The point here is not that if you can make a tea that can age with time. The point is that Pu'er tea is like a "brand", specific to a geographic region, like Kentucky Bourbon, or Scotch Whiskey, or Irish Whiskey etc. You can't label a whiskey made in Japan a "Kentucky Bourbon", just because they are both made with the parameters required for a bourbon. So that's why I don't understand certain vendors naming all kinds of tea Pu'er, left and right. It's just like how everyone says their tea is Laobanzhang, when it isn't.

If they want to make Fujian Heicha, then they are welcome to do so. There isn't just Pu'er in the Heicha category. More regions and their traditional teas, should get their promotion, instead of mislabeling.

Sorry, I only meant to refer to the main categories of Green Tea, White, Tea, Red Tea, and Black(Hei) Tea, and Pu'er as the largest sub category within Black(Hei) Tea. The subcategories are still wild and there's little order in it.

Vendors could always roll with the "New Secret Location, type of tea" marketing, to get up a region or kind of tea running. Yue Guang Bai is amazing, and not many vendors focus on that, or Dian Hong, and other red teas from Yunnan. Or Smaller Pu'er making reigns, which start to get a name, Like Kunlushan. Bingdao was a no name place before 2008 and LBZ was a no name place before Chen Sheng Hao(?). There are many other regions in Yunnan like those, which have good tea, but no name yet.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:47 am**

Youzi wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:04 am
The point here is not that if you can make a tea that can age with time. The point is that Pu'er tea is like a "brand", specific to a geographic region, like Kentucky Bourbon, or Scotch Whiskey, or Irish Whiskey etc. You can't label a whiskey made in Japan a "Kentucky Bourbon", just because they are both made with the parameters required for a bourbon. So that's why I don't understand certain vendors naming all kinds of tea Pu'er, left and right. It's just like how everyone says their tea is Laobanzhang, when it isn't.

It's certainly true, but on the other hand how does one call a tea that is processed like puerh but made outside of yunnan. Like tea from Laos, just over the border, the same kind of leaves from the same natural habitat. It makes sense to label it as "Laos puerh", the same way one talks about "Japanese whisky" or "Japanese bourbon". I don't think there is any dishonesty in such labeling, as long as it is clear that it's not from Yunnan.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:47 am**

.m. wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:47 am

Youzi wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:04 am
The point here is not that if you can make a tea that can age with time. The point is that Pu'er tea is like a "brand", specific to a geographic region, like Kentucky Bourbon, or Scotch Whiskey, or Irish Whiskey etc. You can't label a whiskey made in Japan a "Kentucky Bourbon", just because they are both made with the parameters required for a bourbon. So that's why I don't understand certain vendors naming all kinds of tea Pu'er, left and right. It's just like how everyone says their tea is Laobanzhang, when it isn't.
It's certainly true, but on the other hand how does one call a tea that is processed like puerh but made outside of yunnan. Like tea from Laos, just over the border, the same kind of leaves from the same natural habitat. It makes sense to label it as "Laos puerh", the same way one talks about "Japanese whisky" or "Japanese bourbon". I don't think there is any dishonesty in such labeling, as long as it is clear that it's not from Yunnan.

Laos Heicha, or if they have a more specific region, then that's better, Bokeo Cha, Phongsaly Cha, etc. (regions near yunnan).
The problem is that Pu'er processing is not that special. Probably many other Heicha producing regions make their tea similarly.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:36 pm**

Pu'er as the largest sub category within Black(Hei) Tea. " ...I'm not sure about the processing of puerh " sun dried "sheng puerh" belongs to the category of hei cha.
Unless you mean that name puerh can be called after few years of aging / storing in humid environment. ( I'm sure that claim can be backed up with the actual history )
With shu puerh I would understand that as the fact that it's technique has been adopted from Liubao processing.
I admit , I don't know how much ( in what level ...time, temperatures ) the kill green a and cooling part ( before kill green ) of processing are involved in Hei Cha and so the drying on sun natural way ( if there is any ) ...so I might be wrong.

Anyhow, I believe that nobody in shop will offer you Green tea, Black tea, Oolong tea , Dark Tea and Dark Puerh Tea...and so the online shops( in China ) . Foreigners tend to use Black / cooked / dark / ripe or Green / uncooked / raw puerh terms as well.
If I go to village and buy fresh tea leafs ( pay the people picking them up ) , then they ask me what tea I'm going to make.
If I say black, white, green or puerh , I clearly state the way of processing and that follows the gear they going to get ready for me.

So my point is, that whatever intentions were ( like branding tea from certain location ...means Puer should be only from Puer / Simao ..not made in other places in Yunnan like Bing Dao or LBZ then ...if follow that original logic ) , still people will swing it to their , more suitable and logical , way to make things easier and practical.
Sometimes there is a difference between the natural / logical and set / determined rules by human. Those two aspect doesn't have to meet each other every time. And I think with puerh tea this is happening.

For Me personally ( as a producer and vendor of puerh tea ) : the puerh name is the way of the 工艺 ..the way how the tea leaf is processed.

Although there is some law set by some government / institution ...yet , in tea business it has no use so it doesn't apply. In future , if the production of puerh outside of Yunnan will grow and fill the world market. Then will be time to upgrade the name to Authentic / Original Puerh Tea ..or something like that ;-D

Thanks for the links btw. It helps for my gathering data project.

Posted: **Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:51 am**

Youzi wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:47 am
Laos Heicha, --
The problem is that Pu'er processing is not that special. Probably many other Heicha producing regions make their tea similarly.

My understanding is that heicha is very varied category, only common denominator is some kind of microbiological fermentation (and young shengpu sort of conflicts that already). Laos pu'er makes it very clear what kind of tea is being made. Afaik all heichas are rather specific, and not that similar to pu'er tea. Liubao, Ancha, Hunan heicha.. All those are really far from each other processing wise.
Basically I think that using 'heicha' to mean pu'er-like tea produced tea outside Yunnan is misleading, all other heichas have their own traditions, cultivars, processing methods.. To use 'heicha' to mean non-yunnanese pu'er takes away some of all that.
Laos pu'er doesn't have separate history or tradition – it is same tea as Yunnan pu'er, there's just a country border in between. So calling it "laos pu'er" tells customer everything they need to understand the tea.

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