I also think IR thermometer is useful for some applications only, obviously not for liquid.faj wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:18 pmGood point. I aimed the laser various ways and could not get a reading that felt right. I did not specifically try to do what you suggest (will try it next time to see how close I get to the reading from the probe when putting the probe close to the side of the pot).
This being said, if you are right, wouldn't the reading still be that of the surface of the clay, just a location where the clay is at a higher temperature than at the bottom?
IR thermometers read from a circular region the size of which changes with distance (at least mine works this way, and has two lasers to help figure out the area the sensor is covering). You have to make sure you are at the right distance, actually stepping back from the teapot. I do not see any advantage over a probe thermometer, either in speed, flexibility or accuracy.
Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?
The leaves reacts to the actual temperature, not the imagined one. As long as you are reliably getting the results you are looking for, it does not really matter that you understand why your method works.
As far as tea appreciation is concerned, I would rather be ignorant of the "science" but proficient at making good tea. But, for me, there is a different kind of fun to be had trying to understand the dynamic of infusing tea, hoping to learn a few useful things along the way. But making good tea and measuring how you make tea are two separate things, and they probably rarely happen at the same time.
faj wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:57 amI typically use 4g for about 100ml. This is what I used for the temperature tests above.
Many would use more leaf than that, in which case the temperature drop due to wet leaves would be even higher. For instance, the tea I used for my tests comes with a recommendation for 4g-5g for 70ml. At 5g for 70ml, this is almost twice as much as I used.
Thanks, this puts things into perspective for me. You guys are using more than double the leaf quantity that I do so the low brewing temperatures makes sense now.
I have this notion - perhaps a bit uneducated, biased, narrow minded and a problematic misconception - that if you can't gong fu a Japanese green (sencha, gyokoro, or what ever), then it's not High Quality. I admit it's a bit problematic, and I don't disgree with the conventional way of brewing such teas (less temprature over longer time and different tea to water ratio) au contraire I do that as well and rather enjoy it and the resulting tea.
I don't fully believe this of course, but I think there are some interesting points in such a test regarding both brewing methods and the qualities of the teas. But to be honest, I'm not sure what to do with this notion. Some parts of me agrees with it to some degree and at some level of understanding while other parts of me thinks it's silly idea over all.
The discussion thread made me think about this a bit though. And as I'm a bit unsure about all this, I'd like to hear some input's from much wiser and well experienced tea persons who could enlighten with some of their thoughts. What is your take on this, is it all nonsense, or is just problematic with some grains of truth in it. Or do you stand by it firmly as if it is were undeniable truth as written down by Lu Yu after becoming an immortal an ascending to heaven?
I don't fully believe this of course, but I think there are some interesting points in such a test regarding both brewing methods and the qualities of the teas. But to be honest, I'm not sure what to do with this notion. Some parts of me agrees with it to some degree and at some level of understanding while other parts of me thinks it's silly idea over all.
The discussion thread made me think about this a bit though. And as I'm a bit unsure about all this, I'd like to hear some input's from much wiser and well experienced tea persons who could enlighten with some of their thoughts. What is your take on this, is it all nonsense, or is just problematic with some grains of truth in it. Or do you stand by it firmly as if it is were undeniable truth as written down by Lu Yu after becoming an immortal an ascending to heaven?
@leth
There are multiple problems with assuming Japanese green teas can be brewed just as well using a gong fu cha method, or that Japanese green tea quality can be assessed using the same methods used for Chinese oolongs.
These teas share a common horticultural ancestry but that is where the comparisons should stop.
Perhaps foremost among these differences is that the tea varieties have been selected for different properties, including brewing methods and flavor compounds.
Japanese tea growers selected tea bushes via vegetative propagation knowing that the resulting tea would be brewed at a lower temperature. They looked for bushes that produced novel flavor compounds that are attractive to the Japanese palate. Some of these flavor compounds come at the expense of increased bitter compounds in the leaves. This is especially true with varietals with assamica genetics (inzatzu) from crossbreeding. The more assamica genetics the more unique the flavors and the more bitter the resulting tea.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, novel flavor compounds often come hand in hand with bitter compounds. Incidentally, this is why Dancong teas, with their unique flavors, are often bitter and/or astringent.
It wasn’t always the case that Japanese tea bushes were vegetatively propagated.
Seed grown Camellia sinensis-sinensis dominated sencha production until about a hundred years ago (zairai). Each bush on a hill produced leaves with different properties. When harvested en masse the resulting tea was good but not spectacular. You are unlikely to get consistency and novel flavors in a harvest like this. HOWEVER, you could brew the tea in boiling water with little to no bitterness. Early sencha was in fact boiled, not steeped. This could be done largely because the tea was seed grown and not select for genetics that produced novel flavors.
While Chinese tea is not seed grown and now uses vegetative propagation, there are not many varietals that were crossed with assamica bushes (and the few that were were done by the Japanese in Taiwan). The characteristics for varietal selection was generally different in China that Japan. Flavors were chosen for the Chinese palate and many were selected from ages old seed grown patches that did not have assamica genetics.
Generally speaking, more emphasis was placed upon terroir and processing than was placed on breeding programs.
If we just deal with the genetics, there is no reason to think you could gfc a sencha as a means to prove it is high quality, as you might a Chinese oolong.
There are multiple problems with assuming Japanese green teas can be brewed just as well using a gong fu cha method, or that Japanese green tea quality can be assessed using the same methods used for Chinese oolongs.
These teas share a common horticultural ancestry but that is where the comparisons should stop.
Perhaps foremost among these differences is that the tea varieties have been selected for different properties, including brewing methods and flavor compounds.
Japanese tea growers selected tea bushes via vegetative propagation knowing that the resulting tea would be brewed at a lower temperature. They looked for bushes that produced novel flavor compounds that are attractive to the Japanese palate. Some of these flavor compounds come at the expense of increased bitter compounds in the leaves. This is especially true with varietals with assamica genetics (inzatzu) from crossbreeding. The more assamica genetics the more unique the flavors and the more bitter the resulting tea.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, novel flavor compounds often come hand in hand with bitter compounds. Incidentally, this is why Dancong teas, with their unique flavors, are often bitter and/or astringent.
It wasn’t always the case that Japanese tea bushes were vegetatively propagated.
Seed grown Camellia sinensis-sinensis dominated sencha production until about a hundred years ago (zairai). Each bush on a hill produced leaves with different properties. When harvested en masse the resulting tea was good but not spectacular. You are unlikely to get consistency and novel flavors in a harvest like this. HOWEVER, you could brew the tea in boiling water with little to no bitterness. Early sencha was in fact boiled, not steeped. This could be done largely because the tea was seed grown and not select for genetics that produced novel flavors.
While Chinese tea is not seed grown and now uses vegetative propagation, there are not many varietals that were crossed with assamica bushes (and the few that were were done by the Japanese in Taiwan). The characteristics for varietal selection was generally different in China that Japan. Flavors were chosen for the Chinese palate and many were selected from ages old seed grown patches that did not have assamica genetics.
Generally speaking, more emphasis was placed upon terroir and processing than was placed on breeding programs.
If we just deal with the genetics, there is no reason to think you could gfc a sencha as a means to prove it is high quality, as you might a Chinese oolong.