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Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:13 am
by ShuShu
It seems that many agree that the first cup should be brewed at about 160F-180F (70C-80C). Yet opinions vary with respect to the second or even third round. Although the majority of sencha drinkers I know use off the boil water (or close to it) to brew the second cup (usually for about 10-20 sec) I have always felt that it generates considerably more astringency and bitterness than using colder water (160F-180F).
How do you brew your second cup?

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 pm
by Victoria
I brew second cup same as first in most cases, occasionally 5-20 seconds less if brew becomes bitter. My sencha steeping temperatures range from 135-170F (57-76C) for first and second steeps, to keep bitterness and brassiness at bay. I never use off boiling water, unless I am going to use yuzamashi (water cooler); first off boil water into kyusu, then into cups, then further cool by filling yuzamashi, and back into kyusu with leaves. Each time temperature drops approximately 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if you begin with 206F goes to 190, 170, 150F, depending on how much time water rests inside each vessel. Typical steeping times are 1-2 minutes for 1st and 2nd steeps, adding time and 2-5F degrees temp after 2nd steep. A rule of thumb I use is to begin with a baseline of 1gr leaf:1oz water/145F/1minute, 1min, 2min, 5min. and make adjustments to improve results; more leaf/less heat/more time etc..Typicaly I end up with more leaf to water ratio. I also keep a log to refer to next time; right now I’m sipping on a sencha that steeped at 165F was bitter according to my notes, but at 145F is perfectly sweet.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm
by Chip
I am definitely in the cooler camp. Too hot (or too long) and successive steeps lose balance becoming too bitter and/or astringent which just ruins further steeps. I am shooting for 5ish steeps, and too hot on any steep cuts the session short for me.

I used to steadily increase temps for successive steps, but now I brew it at drinking temp for every steep.

2nd steep, always around 30 seconds although I do not time it.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 pm
by tealifehk
I use around 80 C for all three infusions: 45, 30 and 90 seconds. Works well for me!

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:20 pm
by d.manuk
Chip wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm
I am definitely in the cooler camp. Too hot (or too long) and successive steeps lose balance becoming too bitter and/or astringent which just ruins further steeps. I am shooting for 5ish steeps, and too hot on any steep cuts the session short for me.

I used to steadily increase temps for successive steps, but now I brew it at drinking temp for every steep.

2nd steep, always around 30 seconds although I do not time it.
What is drinking temp for you?
Even at 175F I have to wait for the tea to cool down a little.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:41 am
by Baisao
Off boil for sencha is dippy. These teas are crafted for lower steeping temps.

My temps range from 145-175° for sencha (even lower for gyokuro) using a kyusu that has not been pre-warmed. The first two steeps are about the same temp (156° on average), the third is a little hotter. I pay close attention to steeping time and less attention to temperature so long as it is in the range above. I measure the temps sometimes so I can explain to others what I am doing, which is why I know the average is temp.

First steeping is 60-120 seconds depending on tea and if there are many fines in it. More fines means less brewing time.

Second steeping is about 10 seconds, or the time it takes to rotate the teapot 5 times.

Third steeping is usually 10 seconds less than the first steeping.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:48 pm
by entropyembrace
I always use the same temperature for each infusion since I find that increasing the temperature for later infusions tends to draw out an unpleasant straw like flavour from sencha.

The temp I use is....when holding my hand to the side of the kettle starts to feel uncomfortable.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:31 pm
by ShuShu
Baisao wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:41 am

First steeping is 60-120 seconds depending on tea and if there are many fines in it. More fines means less brewing time.

Second steeping is about 10 seconds, or the time it takes to rotate the teapot 5 times.

Third steeping is usually 10 seconds less than the first steeping.
Thank everyone for sharing their experience.
Baisao — your setup gave me the best third cup. Gentle and full of flavor. Thanks!

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:00 am
by Baisao
ShuShu wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:31 pm
Thank everyone for sharing their experience.
Baisao — your setup gave me the best third cup. Gentle and full of flavor. Thanks!
I’m glad we could help. :-)

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:26 pm
by Chip
Shine Magical wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:20 pm
Chip wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm
I am definitely in the cooler camp. Too hot (or too long) and successive steeps lose balance becoming too bitter and/or astringent which just ruins further steeps. I am shooting for 5ish steeps, and too hot on any steep cuts the session short for me.

I used to steadily increase temps for successive steps, but now I brew it at drinking temp for every steep.

2nd steep, always around 30 seconds although I do not time it.
What is drinking temp for you?
Even at 175F I have to wait for the tea to cool down a little.
I used to measure temp for every first steep of sencha, but it has been a number of years since I have. I just don't anymore, just feel. And feel turns out is also drinking temp after steeping and pouring.

Like I said, I am in the cool camp, so I am guessing 150-160 ... +/-

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:21 pm
by Bobbler
Tea brewing is an individual thing, and I haven’t decided which I like best.. Sometimes I stick with one temp and vary the brew time.. Other times I vary both. For sencha; I usually go 170-180F. 160F is not hot enough for me (maybe my taste buds want a touch of bitterness. I’ve noticed it also depends on the sencha, as deep steamed brews different that asamuchi.

Re: second brew.. I do something similar.
I use a breville, so,I know I’m pouring at 195F..
“Off a rolling boil,” sounds excessive for sencha..

I have tried the second brew at 195 for gyokuro; as follows:

______BREW-1:
122F for 2 minutes; with 2oz or less water.. this very low temp hydrates and wakes up the tea. Most of the water is absorbed by the tea (you get about 2 teaspoons volume on the pour). Very interesting taste.

Don’t try to wring out as much as you can on the first pour, because leaving the leaves with a little but water affects brew-2. Also, brew-2 should,Benin 5-15 minutes, because the tea is still brewing even between brews.

______BREW-2:
195F.. I pour in 5-15 seconds. Even tho the water is 195F. Strong flavorful brew.

______BREW-3:
Surprisingly, there is still flavor left in the tea.. I’m not sure here.. either 170/180F for a long brew.. or 195F again..

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:44 pm
by debunix
Odd that I missed this the first time around. I usually leave the kettle alone between first and second infusions, and so it cools a bit, depending on how long I linger over the first infusion. So if the first infusion is about 170 and maybe 90 seconds, the second will be 160-165 and shorter, perhaps 30 seconds. I heat back up for the 3rd infusion, so back to 170-ish, but don't raise the temp usually until the 4th infusion.

I do the same pattern of letting things cool after 1st infusion for gyokuro, usually, although temps overall will be lower.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:57 am
by Converser
How does the pouring length impact the flavor btw?

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:44 am
by Victoria
Converser wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:57 am
How does the pouring length impact the flavor btw?
Welcome to TeaForum Converser. Interesting question, I think pour length is more impactful with very short gong fu cha 20, 25, 35 sec steeps. With Japanese greens steeps are typically longer so an extra 5, 10, 15 sec pour won’t make a huge difference. With familiarity of steeping vessel and kettle pour, those timing details get absorbed into individual steeping parameters for each particular tea. Of course, if pour length is very slow, and this isn’t taken into account with length of steep, the liquor could turn out slightly bitter, so next time a shorter steep will resolve this.

Re: Sencha: what water temp do you use for the second cup?

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:47 pm
by bentz98125
Random thoughts on the subject. As I'm sure you see by now, the eternal quest for the perfect nectar can easily devolve into a deluge of variables and measurements. But the broader brewing trade offs are quite simple. For example, intensity of first steep draws from number and intensity of subsequent ones. The hotter the water, the quicker the brewing time. (Afterall, ice can be used to steep tea if you wait long enough!) The larger the leaf to water ratio, the shorter the steeping time. But throw in water type and quality, brewing vessel clay and glaze, etc. and of course it is complicated again. Exactly where you want to fall on the spectrum of any given trade-off varies not only from individual to individual, but also in the same individual over time! The line between big umami and big bitter can be thin. Eat a lot of dark chocolate and your tolerance for bitter goes up. Eat a lot of (genuine) mexican cuisine and your tolerance for picante goes up. Do a lot of heroin and... you get the point. First brew of the day you may be looking for gradual, subtle, gentle contemplation. By noon, you may be ready to blast through the cosmos. Happy exploring!