"Zairai" or seed propagated sencha

Non-oxidized tea
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teatray
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Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:37 am

@Baisao I admit it's an indirect conclusion, which increases the chance for it to be a mistake. I have compared sencha from spheroid tokoname (though it's been a while) vs flat tokoname vs spheroid porcelain and also a glazed hohin with a wide opening (upside-down cut-off cone). I have more than one representative vessel of each, except for the hohin. Within the limitations of my pot collection, I prefer the sencha that comes out of the flatter vessels with a wide opening: flat > hohin > spheroids, along what I perceive as a single taste/smell "dimension", regardless of material.

It would be preferable, if I could compare with a similar flat porcelain kyusu, so I can better isolate shape & material influences, but I've looked and haven't found any for sale (Maekawa Junzo makes some but without inside glazing. Ippodo, Sazen, and others sell flattish glazed kyusu but they are really hemispherical, not flat, though probably the best bet to equalize the taste-test, esp. since one of the options is relatively cheap. I should probably get it to verify my perceptions and try the flat shape for other teas...)

I might be using "stewy" incorrectly (as a non-native speaker). What I mean is not necessarily spinachy (though that note would definitely be enhanced/exposed). It's more like a kind of celery-parsley-potato-y general overcooked blandness of vegetal tones, present regardless of sencha quality. Probably not the most useful description since these herbs taste different to different people, but the best I can think of. The brighter flavors seem to be "hidden".

In comparison, the flat pot to me tastes sharper, fresher, more aromatic, with more easily identifiable fruity/flowery bouquet elements both in taste and nose alone. It is also a bit drier at the back of the throat. This is from several comparisons with different sencha and using two different porcelain pots (one Japanese, one Taiwanese). I know it's counter-intuitive, as you'd expect the hotter brew to be more astringent & more flavorful (hotter due to better heat retention of the spheroid) but it's what I taste.

My spheroid tokoname are unavailable for testing at the moment, as they are used for roasted teas. So it may be that I am somewhat fooling myself about the pot shape vs material contribution. The obvious factor to consider is the better heat retention of the spheroid pots. I have measured it carefully via repeated experiments: with or without (volume/temp-equalized) prewarming pours, there is a >5°C difference in the final temperature of 100ml initially boiling-hot liquid after 90s in my flat tokoname vs. spheroid thin porcelain pot of very similar volume.

But even if I decrease the brewing water temp by 5°C for the spheroid porcelain and compare with the flat pot (e.g. flat pot gets 75°C, spheroid gets 70°C), I get a blander, more "stewy" ("cooked", "soupy"?) result from the spheroid.

My (perhaps incorrect) thinking is that I like the temperature profile of the flatter teapots better (at least for sencha). Start off hot (maybe hotter than generally recommended) then quickly cool off. Wait for subsequent infusions with cooler, drier, unclumped leaves, instead of preserving heat (which may be good for other teas). This aligns with my general perception that you end up with blandness not only by underextracting but also by overextracting something unpleasant which flattens everything else. Maybe the hotness in the beginning is just enough to get some good stuff out that would be unavailable to a lower but more constant temp brew? And cooling down prevents it from also getting some bad stuff (which may be the same as the good stuff but in unpleasant quantities)? I do not know, and I guess I cannot insist on anything before tasting blind, but it is a strong perception that I prefer the flat profile (with the difference being even more pronounced in later infusions).

Another factor might be saturation/fluid dynamics: all water is near leaves in the flat pot, whereas in the spheroid you have a mass sitting above the leaves that's generally much thinner. Could saturation/equilibrium below hinder extraction of some desirable components?
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Baisao
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Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:46 pm

teatray wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:37 am
I might be using "stewy" incorrectly (as a non-native speaker). What I mean is not necessarily spinachy (though that note would definitely be enhanced/exposed). It's more like a kind of celery-parsley-potato-y general overcooked blandness of vegetal tones, present regardless of sencha quality. Probably not the most useful description since these herbs taste different to different people, but the best I can think of. The brighter flavors seem to be "hidden".
I think I understand the flavors your are describing. They are vegetal flavors in the low/deep range that can seem washed out. If so, these are flavors I get when a session has passed its prime.

Having read the rest of your post, you've presented a conundrum. It is difficult to make sense of it. It could be that you have problems with the thermal mass of the gall in spherical pots or that you simply prefer the clay of the flat pot. It is a surprising result but in the end we like what we like.

I'm looking forward to trying this zairai and even simmering it. It's been lauded by two separate people whose tastes I respect. Now I need a sizable enough excuse to make a back to back purchase from TDJ.
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teatray
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Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:27 am

Baisao wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:46 pm
I think I understand the flavors your are describing. They are vegetal flavors in the low/deep range that can seem washed out. If so, these are flavors I get when a session has passed its prime.
Yes, washed out rather than bright. Not as bad but maybe in the direction of the off-balance tastes you'd get when trying to force an extra extraction from a sencha that just can't give any more.
Having read the rest of your post, you've presented a conundrum. It is difficult to make sense of it. It could be that you have problems with the thermal mass of the gall in spherical pots or that you simply prefer the clay of the flat pot. It is a surprising result but in the end we like what we like.
Appreciate the comment, I will be investigating further. Actually ordered a flat porcelain pot to test against the rounder ones I have. Figured it'd be good to have if my perception holds, and money well spent on education otherwise :mrgreen:. (I'll post what I think in the end, but I'll take it to another thread.)
I'm looking forward to trying this zairai and even simmering it. It's been lauded by two separate people whose tastes I respect. Now I need a sizable enough excuse to make a back to back purchase from TDJ.
Would be interested to read how you like it. It occurs to me that, just as variability between harvests is much higher with non-clonal sencha, variability within the same harvest/product may also be higher than usual. So not sure how similar the teas are that we are discussing / buying under the same product name.
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LeoFox
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Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:39 am

teatray wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:27 am
Baisao wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:46 pm
I think I understand the flavors your are describing. They are vegetal flavors in the low/deep range that can seem washed out. If so, these are flavors I get when a session has passed its prime.
Yes, washed out rather than bright. Not as bad but maybe in the direction of the off-balance tastes you'd get when trying to force an extra extraction from a sencha that just can't give any more.
Having read the rest of your post, you've presented a conundrum. It is difficult to make sense of it. It could be that you have problems with the thermal mass of the gall in spherical pots or that you simply prefer the clay of the flat pot. It is a surprising result but in the end we like what we like.
Appreciate the comment, I will be investigating further. Actually ordered a flat porcelain pot to test against the rounder ones I have. Figured it'd be good to have if my perception holds, and money well spent on education otherwise :mrgreen:. (I'll post what I think in the end, but I'll take it to another thread.)
I'm looking forward to trying this zairai and even simmering it. It's been lauded by two separate people whose tastes I respect. Now I need a sizable enough excuse to make a back to back purchase from TDJ.
Would be interested to read how you like it. It occurs to me that, just as variability between harvests is much higher with non-clonal sencha, variability within the same harvest/product may also be higher than usual. So not sure how similar the teas are that we are discussing / buying under the same product name.

As someone who buys multiple bags of zairai across a season, I will note there is little variation within a batch since the material is mixed up to form the batch. Between seasons, there will of course be variation. Higher variability than unblended single cultivar, single origin? I would say only marginally. Those single origin single cultivar unblended sencha are at the mercy of harvest and growth conditions and processing. The most consistent sencha tend to be the big blends that are formulated for a target profile intended to be comparable year after year.
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LeoFox
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Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:38 pm

Same tsukigase Zairai as mentioned above but lightly rolled. Seems less bitter and more floral compared to the needle shaped tea.

https://shop.hojotea.com.my/collections ... omi-sencha

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debunix
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Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:26 pm

No bitterness across many brews…

That sounds just terrific!
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LeoFox
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Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:55 am

debunix wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:26 pm
No bitterness across many brews…

That sounds just terrific!
I'm not sure if this is a flaw but after a few days, the strength of this tea has plummeted so much that I am forced to use 5g/ 100 ml off boiling starting at around 25-35 seconds. Even brewed this way, this tea still has much attenuated body, but the floral aroma remains, and seems to balance out well with later very long brews.
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LeoFox
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Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:33 am

LeoFox wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:55 am
debunix wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:26 pm
No bitterness across many brews…

That sounds just terrific!
I'm not sure if this is a flaw but after a few days, the strength of this tea has plummeted so much that I am forced to use 5g/ 100 ml off boiling starting at around 25-35 seconds. Even brewed this way, this tea still has much attenuated body, but the floral aroma remains, and seems to balance out well with later very long brews.
After digging into the bag, I can confirm this a truly heat loving tea. 5g starting at 40s boiling hot water followed by similar duration and then moving up relatively steeply. It works well. I wonder this is getting close to steeping a fresh unprocessed tea leaf.

Update: using my Chinese green parameters also works very well: 3.5g/ 100 ml starting at 60s, which doesn't work with the fully needled version.

Very interesting how light rolling can transform a sencha in this way
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LeoFox
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Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:07 pm

Tsukigase zairai from hojo Processed with Long Withering
https://hojotea.com.my/posts-196/

The same raw material processed differently is described above-

Normal sencha processing:
viewtopic.php?p=41223#p41223

Light rolling:
viewtopic.php?p=43759#p43759

I feel it is a nice experience to drink the same tea leaf processed differently in this way. Few vendors offer this opportunity.

For this tea, hojo introduced 24 hour withering under the sun in some forested area. The intent is to increase floral aroma and it is recommended by hojo to brew tea with boiling water to enhance this quality. Overall, I feel this tea is a bit more fragrant than the non-withered version, but is otherwise quite similar to it.


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LeoFox
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Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:28 am

Been drinking through another bag of hojo tsukigase sencha every day for the past week. Been a few months since I touched Japanese greens - so it has been nice feeling like returning to something very familiar. I realize again how wonderful these wild teas are when approached at ease - not really expecting something absolutely consistent- but more like taking a walk into some natural area. The first infusion presents the scene- and then a later one might feel subtle- and then after that can be an aromatic concentrate. Sometimes, there might even be a musky note after a long, boiling hot infusion near the end. Quite pleasant for me at least hahaha. Never boring - always thought provoking.
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LeoFox
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Fri May 19, 2023 9:03 am

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