What Green Are You Drinking

[faj]

faj, I confess that this is something I have only noticed in bancha (some), zairai (some), kamairi-cha, not sencha. You must have a finer palate than I do!

The first time I noticed this was in spring of last year. I purchased the same shincha as a fellow forum member (Chip if memory serves). He noted the tea was too highly roasted to his taste, and I for myself found it reminded me of kamairi-cha. It is like something clicked, and I started paying more attention to this. At first I found his assessment of this particular tea a bit harsh, as this added taste was kind of "fun".

This firing will give the tea a certain sweetness, something along the line of faint baked pastry aromatics (Maillard reaction I guess). As long as it stays below the threshold where I consciously notice its presence, it probably gives the tea some dimension, some depth. But there can be too much of a good thing.

I recently went through a bag of sencha from Thés du Japon I had purchased before. My recollection and notes indicated this tea had great depth and clarity, aromas that were not very powerful, but were able to shine through because it was a tea that had no flaw. The first session with it this time I found it great, if roasted a bit much. Then the following sessions, once the excitement had died down, I found the roast was really bothering me. I checked Florent's assessment and, sure enough, it rated the tea 3 out of 4 on the "firing" scale. I cannot tell whether the tea was different last year, or whether I am different from last year, but I will surely pay more attention to this part of Florent's ratings from now on.

[Victoria]

@faj I hear what you are saying regarding certain flavors being brought out by different processing methods with Japanese green teas, I have noticed this as well. Regarding ‘roasting’ or ‘firing’, I think it’s a question of translation and how Thés du Japón is using the term ‘firing’ and ‘roasting’. They sometimes buy aracha and then continue the rest of the process in-house, like further sorting, and drying -what they call ‘roasting’ but typically this step is refered to as ‘baking’ or ‘drying’ to remove excess moisture, not to actually roast, at least with most sencha. Most Japanese greens are steamed, rolled, and then dried to remove moisture. Some like the Kamarichi (Kama-iri), that you and Bok discussed, are pan fried (not steamed), rolled, and dried. Others are actually roasted (hotter than drying/baked) after steaming and rolling like Hojicha, Iribancha, and some uniquely roasted sencha and matcha.

It would be interesting to taste the same leaf, processed in the same way, up to the rolling step, and then to bake/dry at different levels of heat and duration. I’m sure results would be very different.

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P.S. A hypothesis why TdJ may prefer using the term ‘roasting’ rather than drying/baking in the final step - electric baking is used in mass produced green tea production and can bring up connotations of an inferior mass market product.

[faj]

I think it’s a question of translation and how Thés du Japón is using the term ‘firing’ and ‘roasting’. They sometimes buy aracha and then continue the rest of the process in-house, like further sorting, and drying -what they call ‘roasting’ but typically this step is refered to as ‘baking’ or ‘drying’ to remove excess moisture, not to actually roast, at least with most sencha.

Googling a bit sencha processing, I indeed find mentions of secondary processing which involve a drying step.

This web page actually mentions pan firing (at the bottom), which surprised me a bit. Not sure if it is a translation mistake or the intended meaning.

https://www.itoen-global.com/allabout_g ... ssing.html

This one uses the name "hiire", which they translate to "firing", to describe secondary drying.

https://www.myjapanesegreentea.com/japa ... d-blending

This one also uses "firing" to describe secondary drying.

http://www.takezawa.jp.net/spring/copy_ ... encha.html

Using Google to translate "hiire" to English, though certainly not a good way to shed light on the subject, actually yields "burn"! So maybe that connotation of "roasting" is intended even in the original language?

While I do understand this step is more akin to drying and is gentler than how kamairi or hojicha are processed, I would hazard a guess that "firing" or "roasting" are used because they hint to the impact on taste the processing step has. Of course, this is just me trying to figure out why some senchas have that note I (rightly or wrongly) associate with that processing step. As you say, it would be really interesting to experience the same tea at different points in its processing, or with variations in its processing that affect the outcome. Without first-hand knowledge, I have to rely on more-or-less educated guesses and armchair theorizing...

[LeoFox]

Hojo:

Aracha refers to the freshly produced tea on the same day when it is plucked. Aracha means crude tea in English.  It is the same meaning as "Mao Cha" in Chinese.
As a common practice, aracha is sent for further refining and firing process. For common Japanese green tea, people believe that aracha has less taste if no firing is conducted. However, from my point of view, firing the tea is a very strange practice. I have travelled many places including China, Taiwan and India. For good tea, people should rather try not to fire the tea and preserve its original character as much as they can. Even Long Jing or many other Chinese green teas, the higher the quality, the lighter the firing.

SmartSelect_20210225-070843_Samsung Internet.jpg (274.66 KiB) Viewed 3844 times

I reviewed the aracha here
viewtopic.php?p=32829#p32829

[Victoria]

@LeoFox sorry which point are you trying to make? Curious

[LeoFox]

LeoFox sorry which point are you trying to make? Curious

In case @faj wants to try the same tea before and after "firing"

[Victoria]

LeoFox sorry which point are you trying to make? Curious

In case faj wants to try the same tea before and after "firing"

Ah okay, makes sense. Thanks

[klepto]

I had never tried Green Tea and was convinced that it tasted like seaweed and green beans. I bought a shiboridashi from Thes Du Japon in October which came with samples I ignored. Now that I was interested in trying sencha and gyokuro I found them. I had one from sencha sample from tdj that tasted like berries with a thick brine liquor. I really liked it but I had never brewed them before so one round was somewhat bitter. I fixed that with shorter steeps and kept going. I'm going to make green tea my morning brew. All these surprising teas are making me more open minded. Can someone give me the best brewing parameters for green tea such as temps, steep time and leaf amounts. Thanks!!

[faj]

Can someone give me the best brewing parameters for green tea such as temps, steep time and leaf amounts. Thanks!!

I cannot give you "the best", but I can tell you what I use as starting points. By all means, take the time to play around with parameters, as Japanese teas are very responsive to even relatively small changes. Only you can tell what you prefer, there is no right or wrong answer.

Sencha, 4g for about 100ml. Water at 75C. Pour water in slowly, then infuse for about 30s (my total infusion time is somewhat longer than 30s, but I find it practical to count starting when I put the kettle down). Following infusions would be 30s, then somewhere between 60s and 90s. That would probably be the parameters I try first, but then based on the results I will play with duration and water temperature (70C will yield something softer that sometimes show pleasant depth, 80C will be more assertive). I probably keep my infusions short compared to other people, especially the first one. Of course, you could reduce the amount of leaf and increase infusion time. It will yield something different, of course. Have fun and try different things.

For gyokuro, if I prepare it with a relatively typical way, I would go with 4g with 20ml to 40ml of water depending on how I feel, 55C-60C, 90 seconds. Second infusion 30s again, same temperature. Next infusion 60s and 65C-70C, then basically doubling duration for every subsequent infusion along with gradually increasing the temperature up to about 80C. Good gyokuro will yield a changing and interesting aromatic profile for 5-6 infusions (the last not being as impactful as the first few infusions, of course). I have seen a few more nice infusions with the most expensive ones I tried.

That being said, these days I more often prepare gyokuro with warmer water. 75C, 30s/30s/60s, then increasing temperature and doubling duration for subsequent infusions. I stumbled upon this way to infuse gyokuro a morning I mistook two bags and though I was infusing sencha. The result is very different from using cooler water, and I find it at least as pleasing.

Hope this helps, but remember to explore.

[klepto]

Can someone give me the best brewing parameters for green tea such as temps, steep time and leaf amounts. Thanks!!

I cannot give you "the best", but I can tell you what I use as starting points. By all means, take the time to play around with parameters, as Japanese teas are very responsive to even relatively small changes. Only you can tell what you prefer, there is no right or wrong answer.

Sencha, 4g for about 100ml. Water at 75C. Pour water in slowly, then infuse for about 30s (my total infusion time is somewhat longer than 30s, but I find it practical to count starting when I put the kettle down). Following infusions would be 30s, then somewhere between 60s and 90s. That would probably be the parameters I try first, but then based on the results I will play with duration and water temperature (70C will yield something softer that sometimes show pleasant depth, 80C will be more assertive). I probably keep my infusions short compared to other people, especially the first one. Of course, you could reduce the amount of leaf and increase infusion time. It will yield something different, of course. Have fun and try different things.

For gyokuro, if I prepare it with a relatively typical way, I would go with 4g with 20ml to 40ml of water depending on how I feel, 55C-60C, 90 seconds. Second infusion 30s again, same temperature. Next infusion 60s and 65C-70C, then basically doubling duration for every subsequent infusion along with gradually increasing the temperature up to about 80C. Good gyokuro will yield a changing and interesting aromatic profile for 5-6 infusions (the last not being as impactful as the first few infusions, of course). I have seen a few more nice infusions with the most expensive ones I tried.

That being said, these days I more often prepare gyokuro with warmer water. 75C, 30s/30s/60s, then increasing temperature and doubling duration for subsequent infusions. I stumbled upon this way to infuse gyokuro a morning I mistook two bags and though I was infusing sencha. The result is very different from using cooler water, and I find it at least as pleasing.

Hope this helps, but remember to explore.

Thanks!! I will take my time with green teas. It is fascinating that each tea wants to brewed in their own way. My hard water 140-150 TDS didn't ruin things but I thought it might. I had quite a few rounds with the sencha and never felt jittery. I can't wait to try a green tea cold brew also. Fun, fun fun!!

[faj]

I ordered from Thés du Japon a while ago. Mostly senchas, along with a couple of gyokuros. I have not hit the jackpot with the senchas, but the gyokuros have been nice.

The first one was the Uji, Kyô-Tanabe, “Yoneta” Uji-hikari. Not the most umami-rich gyokuro, but very good balance. I had more success infusing this one at 75C (4g/100ml, 30s, 30s, then upping time and temperature for subsequent infusions), because longer, cooler steeping was not putting its best aspects forward.

The second one was the Uji, Kyô-Tanabe, "Yamashita" Kyô-midori. Beautiful if a bit uneven leaves, quite dark. I tried it a couple of times with the "hot" recipe above, with excellent results. Strong and pleasant aromas, punchy sweet/salty hit, all aspects are assertive but in good balance. Among all gyokuros I tried this way, I would say it probably is the one with the starkest change from the first infusion to the second, as well as the gyokuro with the second infusion the most reminiscent of matcha I ever tasted. This morning, I tried it with 60C water for 90s and a "barely covering the leaves" dosage yielding around maybe 10ml of tea, and the result was beautiful. One of the best first infusion of gyokuros I have had. Probably not quite as punchy and persistent as Ippodo's Tokusen from the group buy, but making it up with more personality, where the Tokusen felt a bit more archetypal to me. Florent's notes on this tea are spot on, and I read them after writing down my own, which were eerily similar, though of course not as detailed.

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My recollection was that both gyokuros were similarly priced, and that the second one was actually a bit less expensive. I thought it was a very good value. Then I checked : the bag was actually a bit more expensive. Then I checked again : it was a 30g bag, while the other one was 50g. It is actually 1,50$/g gyokuro, so that kind of explains a few things... Ah! the curse of prices : there are teas you would want to drink every day but cannot afford, and others you can afford everyday but would rather not.

[McScooter]

I had never tried Green Tea and was convinced that it tasted like seaweed and green beans. I bought a shiboridashi from Thes Du Japon in October which came with samples I ignored. Now that I was interested in trying sencha and gyokuro I found them. I had one from sencha sample from tdj that tasted like berries with a thick brine liquor. I really liked it but I had never brewed them before so one round was somewhat bitter. I fixed that with shorter steeps and kept going. I'm going to make green tea my morning brew. All these surprising teas are making me more open minded. Can someone give me the best brewing parameters for green tea such as temps, steep time and leaf amounts. Thanks!!

I went down a similar pathway. I mostly drank high mountain oolong or red tea mid-morning, before rediscovering Japanese greens last summer. They can be an acquired taste (as are most teas, really), but I now find myself addicted to the umami kick, and seeking out teaware that enhances it by increasing body/thickness. I also swear that the hit of theanine and caffeine elevates mood and ups my cognition beyond just placebo.

Re: brewing, they are certainly more sensitive to parameters than most, and even vendors vary recommendations by a fair amount between different senchas. That's sort of what makes it fun, and of course easier when you have a 100g pack to play with vs. a sample. This may sound like sacrilege to some, but I find that 2.5g / 100ml, 180F and a 50-60 second steep can produce an inoffensive brew that's either good by itself, depending on mood, or a jumping off point that guides me to what I'm looking for. I actually brewed a sencha this way this morning, and compared the same tea to 4g / 100ml, 165F, 30 seconds side by side. The former was easy drinking with present umami and high notes, while the latter was more viscous, with more umami, but less delicate, and brought out a mineral note. With this particular sencha, I actually prefer the former steep parameters as the tea is just delicious and gulp-able that way, though I honestly usually use the latter ones more frequently for more of an umami hit (all the while playing with variables to ensure astringency/bitterness remains in check). You will of course probably get more of the "green" flavors you cite if you brew this way, but may learn to love them in due time.

The umami in Japanese greens reminds me a bit of how Churchill described whiskey, after initially hating the taste of it: "once one got the knack of it, the very repulsion from the flavour developed an attraction of its own." Dabbling in scotch myself, that's how many fall in love with peaty Islay whiskeys, and how some ultimately develop a love of umami and green flavors in Japanese greens.

[faj]

This may sound like sacrilege to some, but I find that 2.5g / 100ml, 180F and a 50-60 second steep can produce an inoffensive brew that's either good by itself, depending on mood, or a jumping off point that guides me to what I'm looking for.

It would seem wasteful to prepare your tea in a way that produce results you like less just because of some perceived norm. That being said, your parameters are not that far outside the realm of what many people use. Quite a bit less radical than Hojo's off-boil water and flash infusions...

Conventional wisdom is something that should not be entirely ignored as it may contain accumulated knowledge, nor should it be observed as a cult, because it may depend on variables that do not apply to your situation (not the same tea, not the same water, not the same teaware, not the same personal preferences, etc.).

I actually brewed a sencha this way this morning, and compared the same tea to 4g / 100ml, 165F, 30 seconds side by side. The former was easy drinking with present umami and high notes, while the latter was more viscous, with more umami, but less delicate, and brought out a mineral note.

It is true that sometimes lower temperature will cause sencha to feel kind of "heavy" (even keeping infusion time the same, which is a bit counter-intuitive), with insufficient aromas to balance out the umami. Hotter water yield something that feels lighter or more grassy, but those "high notes" I sometimes feel are the result of a bit of astringency mixed with something stewed. My feeling is that finding sencha that shines aromatically around 70C is difficult, but those that do are those I tend to prefer.

[Baisao]

@faj, I have noticed the lightness of teas brewed at hotter temps also with oolongs. I refer to it as élan. Lower temps lack it, but make up for it in other ways. Horses for courses.

I think the thinner/hotter steeping parameters suit Western palates well and I eased into Japanese teas brewing them this way for quite a few years. The benefits of this are that the additional water opens up the structure of the tea so it is easier to analyze and may even seem more balanced. It’s similar to dynamic range in photography. I now prefer more the traditionally dense, high-contrast steeps using less water and cooler temps. Although, there are times when I decompress the structure to get a more detailed view of the tea.

[faj]

faj, I have noticed the lightness of teas brewed at hotter temps also with oolongs. I refer to it as élan. Lower temps lack it, but make up for it in other ways. Horses for courses.

Thanks for sharing. Interesting choice of word to describe it. Glad to hear I am not imagining things.

I think balance in a tea can influence the perception of how powerful it feels. I do not think anyone would argue that infusing at hotter temperatures extracts less of anything in the leaves (everything else including infusion time being the same, of course). But tea infused hotter can feel "lighter" because of how the brain interprets slightly different aromas, a bit more astringency and other variations which may be difficult to describe in words but modify the experience in a meaningful way.

Sometimes, it feels like the quest for tea bliss, especially with sencha, is about finding the best tricks to fool your mind into believing that the liquid in the cup has some elusive je-ne-sais-quoi that was missing when infused slightly differently, despite the fact that all you play with is the balance of chemicals that were all there to begin with, but with slightly different proportions.