What Green Are You Drinking

[twno1]

I am new to green tea and am currently in Tokyo so I bought a bunch of sencha from various small/local stores in my area as opposed to large department stores. I was originally going to order from an online vendor but I noticed that some of them were marking up certain teas for as much as 250% so I decided to buy local instead. While browsing local shops in Tokyo, I noticed that while they were much cheaper than online vendors (average price for sencha was $10/100g), most of them were packaged (design wise) very similarly - almost as if they were OEM rebrands. This got me extremely curious so I am wondering:

Is it possible to determine sencha quality based on what the leaves look like before and after brewing? After taking on water, should the leaves mostly be full and intact or mostly bits and pieces? Should stems make up a significant portion of the tea? Is tea dust a good or bad sign? etc What are some signs that the tea I'm buying is "actually good"?
Am I actually "saving" money by buying local teas or am I just buying poor quality garbage?

[Victoria]

I am new to green tea and am currently in Tokyo so I bought a bunch of sencha from various small/local stores in my area as opposed to large department stores. I was originally going to order from an online vendor but I noticed that some of them were marking up certain teas for as much as 250% so I decided to buy local instead. While browsing local shops in Tokyo, I noticed that while they were much cheaper than online vendors (average price for sencha was $10/100g), most of them were packaged (design wise) very similarly - almost as if they were OEM rebrands. This got me extremely curious so I am wondering:

Is it possible to determine sencha quality based on what the leaves look like before and after brewing? After taking on water, should the leaves mostly be full and intact or mostly bits and pieces? Should stems make up a significant portion of the tea? Is tea dust a good or bad sign? etc What are some signs that the tea I'm buying is "actually good"?
Am I actually "saving" money by buying local teas or am I just buying poor quality garbage?

Many of these questions will organically be answered as you sample different teas over time. Since you are in Tokio I recommend you visit Thes du Japon and sample some teas and chat with the staff. If a sencha or gyokuro has been hand rolled the finely rolled needles will be well formed and intact before steeping. Depending on level of steaming, the needles will become more finely broken up as longer steaming times are used. Fukamushi (deep steamed) the needles will be more broken up and very fine, requiring a sesame filter or similarly fine filter. Stems are not typically included in sencha and gyokuro, but are in kukicha (twig tea) and roasted hojika. Tea dust is not something you really want in Japanese green teas unless it’s matcha. I recommend you sample teas from a few reputable vendors such as O-Cha, Maiko, Thes du Japon so you can compare levels of quality. If you are in tea growing regions such as Kagoshima, Shizuoka, Mie, Kyoto, Fukuoka, or Miyazaki and you buy local, it is very possible to get high quality green teas from reputable local vendors.

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[leafmajor]

A bowl of koicha to soothe my frazzled nerves. I didn't expect to like ippodo's nodoka so much, yet here I am, down to my last tin, and feeling rather emotional about it.

[twno1]

Many of these questions will organically be answered as you sample different teas over time. Since you are in Tokio I recommend you visit Thes du Japon and sample some teas and chat with the staff. If a sencha or gyokuro has been hand rolled the finely rolled needles will be well formed and intact before steeping. Depending on level of steaming, the needles will become more finely broken up as longer steaming times are used. Fukamushi (deep steamed) the needles will be more broken up and very fine, requiring a sesame filter or similarly fine filter. Stems are not typically included in sencha and gyokuro, but are in kukicha (twig tea) and roasted hojika. Tea dust is not something you really want in Japanese green teas unless it’s matcha. I recommend you sample teas from a few reputable vendors such as O-Cha, Maiko, Thes du Japon so you can compare levels of quality. If you are in tea growing regions such as Kagoshima, Shizuoka, Mie, Kyoto, Fukuoka, or Miyazaki and you buy local, it is very possible to get high quality green teas from reputable local vendors.

Thanks for the suggestion, Victoria. I went to Thes Du Japon and got this shincha. I believe it was about ¥900 for 100g, which puts it at roughly the same price range as my other teas from "local" shops, which were all ¥1000/100g. I compared the dried/wet leaves of the TDJ shincha with a saemidori (¥1000/100g) and a kabusecha (¥950/100g) I bought from local shops. All 3 teas should be normal steam teas.
Thes-Du-Japon shincha - dry leaves and wet leaves.
Saemidori (local shop) - dry leaves and wet leaves.
Uji Kabusecha (local shop) - dry leaves and wet leaves.
I didn't really "notice" much difference between the 3 when dry. They were all dark green and had thin needle like shapes. I dump the tea leaves from the bag (I don't use a spoon) and I noticed that the shincha from Thes Du Japon had the "most" dust, but that was only relative to the other two. In reality, there was very little dust overall.
After brewing, I noticed that the wet leaves of the shincha from Thes Du Japon was the lightest in color. It was yellowish green while the other two were "solidly" green. However, the shincha from Thes Du Japon contained some "fully intact" leaves whereas the saemidori and kabusecha from local shops mostly only of consisted of broken apart leaves. I think all 3 had more or less the same amount of stem.
Taste wise they were all good (I think?) so I can't really compare them there...
Are the amount of stems in the pictures presented above an "acceptable" amount for decent quality sencha? For Japanese sencha (and gyokuro, I guess), should there be fully intact leaves when wetx or will most leaves be broken apart?

[Janice]

A session with a disappointing and not inexpensive ($28/50 grams) gyokuro from Thes-du-Japan. I try other vendors but I’m always happiest with O-Cha teas so I’m hoping that I’m able to purchase my 2020 teas from O-Cha as usual. I prepared the tea in a shiboridashi set I purchased from O-Cha as soon as they reopened after the tsunami.

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[debunix]

Sparkling green tea: not the finest use of some handmade Korean green tea, Jungjak from Morning Crane, but this one has been opened too long for best flavor. And it made lovely sparkling tea. It's the first scorching day of the year, house is closed up and A/C is on (I tried not to but when temp inside was 86 degrees, I wimped out and put it on), and after a few minutes outside in the yard with my camera & flowers, the sparkling sencha is brilliant.

The flowers are beyond brilliant, because, flowers!

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[Victoria]

Stunning details on those beauties @debunix, gorgeous.

..... However, the shincha from Thes Du Japon contained some "fully intact" leaves whereas the saemidori and kabusecha from local shops mostly only of consisted of broken apart leaves. I think all 3 had more or less the same amount of stem.
Taste wise they were all good (I think?) so I can't really compare them there...
Are the amount of stems in the pictures presented above an "acceptable" amount for decent quality sencha? For Japanese sencha (and gyokuro, I guess), should there be fully intact leaves when wetx or will most leaves be broken apart?

I think what you are referring to as stems, are the midrib that attaches to the blade of a leaf. During the steaming and then rolling process the midrib can become detached from the blade. Deep steamed (Fukamushi) leaf will be the most broken up, less with normal steamed (Futsumushi), and less again with light steamed (Asamushi). Here is a more complete description of steaming levels.

[Tor]

Are the amount of stems in the pictures presented above an "acceptable" amount for decent quality sencha?

Tea makers sometimes use twigs to balance the flavors. I remember the gyokuro that won first prize in all Japan competition 5-6 years ago was rather twiggy.

[twno1]

I think what you are referring to as stems, are the midrib that attaches to the blade of a leaf. During the steaming and then rolling process the midrib can become detached from the blade. Deep steamed (Fukamushi) leaf will be the most broken up, less with normal steamed (Futsumushi), and less again with light steamed (Asamushi). Here is a more complete description of steaming levels.

That would make a lot of sense, haha. Thanks for the info.

Tea makers sometimes use twigs to balance the flavors. I remember the gyokuro that won first prize in all Japan competition 5-6 years ago was rather twiggy.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

[S_B]

I decided to have some Sencha before my morning walk and my first round of Teams meetings with students.

Today I had Honyama Tamakawa Yamakai Cultivar 本山 玉川 山峽 from TDJ. I decided to brew this within vendor recommended parameters. I brewed 10g for 150ml of water at 60C in a preheated Kyusu.

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The resulting tea was incredibly brothy and sweet. A very incredible umami punch in the first two steeps with very unique melon and berry aromas within the broth. A mild and inviting astringency helped it all linger pleasantly after each sip.

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This was the perfect mind-clearer and uplifter to start my morning walk! Spring is in full-force here, and I only just today thought maybe I should get some pictures of flowers just for fun so here are some from my walk. Have a splendid day everyone!

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[faj]

Today I had Honyama Tamakawa Yamakai Cultivar 本山 玉川 山峽 from TDJ. I decided to brew this within vendor recommended parameters. I brewed 10g for 150ml of water at 60C in a preheated Kyusu. The resulting tea was incredibly brothy and sweet.

I went through a bag of this tea a couple of months ago. Reading through my notes, I found it rich in umami and sweet, as you mentioned. There was something very clear, transparent about that tea, but it had thickness and presence too. I wrote in my notes that I would have liked stronger aromas, but that I otherwise found nothing wrong or missing, and a lot to like.

The infusion parameters I ended up preferring for the first infusion were 2g in 100ml, 70C for 120s, so quite different from the recommendation. I even made one "stupid" attempt with only 1g in 100ml, 80C for 160s, which I actually liked, writing I would prefer 4 first infusions like that rather than steeping the same 4g four times. I did try with the recommended lower temperature and higher amount of leaf, but infusing sencha more like gyokuro often reminds me how much I like gyokuro... Heck, I infused gyokuro like sencha by mistake recently, and thought it was great sencha before I realized what I had done!

[S_B]

Today I had Honyama Tamakawa Yamakai Cultivar 本山 玉川 山峽 from TDJ. I decided to brew this within vendor recommended parameters. I brewed 10g for 150ml of water at 60C in a preheated Kyusu. The resulting tea was incredibly brothy and sweet.

I went through a bag of this tea a couple of months ago. Reading through my notes, I found it rich in umami and sweet, as you mentioned. There was something very clear, transparent about that tea, but it had thickness and presence too. I wrote in my notes that I would have liked stronger aromas, but that I otherwise found nothing wrong or missing, and a lot to like.

The infusion parameters I ended up preferring for the first infusion were 2g in 100ml, 70C for 120s, so quite different from the recommendation. I even made one "stupid" attempt with only 1g in 100ml, 80C for 160s, which I actually liked, writing I would prefer 4 first infusions like that rather than steeping the same 4g four times. I did try with the recommended lower temperature and higher amount of leaf, but infusing sencha more like gyokuro often reminds me how much I like gyokuro... Heck, I infused gyokuro like sencha by mistake recently, and thought it was great sencha before I realized what I had done!

That's interesting! I have never tried ratios that low before personally! I definitely fall into the camp of lots of leaf and a bit lower temp. My go-to temp for the limited range of teas I've tried so far is 70C. As someone who is very into thick and rich brothy tea, this worked out pretty well for me personally. I'd say that while I agree that the fragrances could have been a bit more present, I think what was enticing about them was how they accompanied the textures well without being overly present. Next time I'll probably go 70C and 7-8g for 150cc to see how that works! I'm definitely open to trying different parameters though. I seem to be pretty happy 1.5g/oz (or 1:20ish) ratio with ~68-70C water currently, but those absolutely aren't hard rules.

[Victoria]

I decided to have some Sencha before my morning walk and my first round of Teams meetings with students.

Today I had Honyama Tamakawa Yamakai Cultivar 本山 玉川 山峽 from TDJ. I decided to brew this within vendor recommended parameters. I brewed 10g for 150ml of water at 60C in a preheated Kyusu.




The resulting tea was incredibly brothy and sweet. A very incredible umami punch in the first two steeps with very unique melon and berry aromas within the broth. A mild and inviting astringency helped it all linger pleasantly after each sip.





This was the perfect mind-clearer and uplifter to start my morning walk! Spring is in full-force here, and I only just today thought maybe I should get some pictures of flowers just for fun so here are some from my walk. Have a splendid day everyone!

Great share @S_B. I can almost smell the aroma of your sencha and those flowers on your walk. Would be interesting to hear how you and @faj compare this very pricy sencha to a few gyokuro you have tried. I see it is umami rich and low astringency (which I think is meant as low bitter taste).

That's interesting! I have never tried ratios that low before personally! I definitely fall into the camp of lots of leaf and a bit lower temp. My go-to temp for the limited range of teas I've tried so far is 70C. As someone who is very into thick and rich brothy tea, this worked out pretty well for me personally. I'd say that while I agree that the fragrances could have been a bit more present, I think what was enticing about them was how they accompanied the textures well without being overly present. Next time I'll probably go 70C and 7-8g for 150cc to see how that works! I'm definitely open to trying different parameters though. I seem to be pretty happy 1.5g/oz (or 1:20ish) ratio with ~68-70C water currently, but those absolutely aren't hard rules.

I’m with you on individual preference of using more leaf/lower temp in order to get a rich brothy sencha and gyokuro. I find myself using 155-165F (68-73C) for many sencha, although each one is so unique, that this range isn’t a guaranteed fit. With gyokuro I’ve gone from 108-140F (42-60C) depending on the tea. Rarely do I go below 1gram leaf/1oz (30ml) water, usually going for 2.2-4g/1oz water (8-10g/80ml) with gyokuro, and for sencha the range is probably broader but off the top I’d say I’m using 1-2 gram leaf/1ounce (30ml) water.

[S_B]

I decided to have some Sencha before my morning walk and my first round of Teams meetings with students.

Today I had Honyama Tamakawa Yamakai Cultivar 本山 玉川 山峽 from TDJ. I decided to brew this within vendor recommended parameters. I brewed 10g for 150ml of water at 60C in a preheated Kyusu.




The resulting tea was incredibly brothy and sweet. A very incredible umami punch in the first two steeps with very unique melon and berry aromas within the broth. A mild and inviting astringency helped it all linger pleasantly after each sip.





This was the perfect mind-clearer and uplifter to start my morning walk! Spring is in full-force here, and I only just today thought maybe I should get some pictures of flowers just for fun so here are some from my walk. Have a splendid day everyone!

Great share S_B. I can almost smell the aroma of your sencha and those flowers on your walk. Would be interesting to hear how you and faj compare this very pricy sencha to a few gyokuro you have tried. I see it is umami rich and low astringency (which I think is meant as low bitter taste).

That's interesting! I have never tried ratios that low before personally! I definitely fall into the camp of lots of leaf and a bit lower temp. My go-to temp for the limited range of teas I've tried so far is 70C. As someone who is very into thick and rich brothy tea, this worked out pretty well for me personally. I'd say that while I agree that the fragrances could have been a bit more present, I think what was enticing about them was how they accompanied the textures well without being overly present. Next time I'll probably go 70C and 7-8g for 150cc to see how that works! I'm definitely open to trying different parameters though. I seem to be pretty happy 1.5g/oz (or 1:20ish) ratio with ~68-70C water currently, but those absolutely aren't hard rules.

I’m with you on individual preference of using more leaf/lower temp in order to get a rich brothy sencha and gyokuro. I find myself using 155-165F (68-73C) for many sencha, although each one is so unique, that this range isn’t a guaranteed fit. With gyokuro I’ve gone from 108-140F (42-60C) depending on the tea. Rarely do I go below 1gram leaf/1oz (30ml) water, usually going for 2.2-4g/1oz water (8-10g/80ml) with gyokuro, and for sencha the range is probably broader but off the top I’d say I’m using 1-2 gram leaf/1ounce (30ml) water.

I differentiate between astringency and bitterness. Both are necessary in tea, but create two different and necessary experiences in a cup of good tea. Bitterness is what creates a huigan experience, or contrasts the sweetness of a tea. Astringency is important, as an appropriate level of this "drying" is needed to cause salivation and keep aftertaste on the palate.

...As for a comparison to say the Gyokuro that you kindly shared with me, there is no comparison, the Gyokuro (both that you sent me) blow this dead out of the water. The astringency here helps keep the aromas around in a way that perhaps the gyokuro do not, but the performance of the gyokuro in terms of body and umami are unrivaled imho

[faj]

Would be interesting to hear how you and faj compare this very pricy sencha to a few gyokuro you have tried. I see it is umami rich and low astringency (which I think is meant as low bitter taste).

It has been a while I must say, so my recollection is not going to be as vivid as @S_B's. This tea was umami rich and low astringency, for sure, but it was nothing like a gyokuro, no doubt about that.

First of all, where gyokuro is usually highly aromatic in addition to delivering an umami hit, this sencha is very subtle on that front. It has a lot of umami for a sencha, but probably not as much as a gyokuro typically delivers. This tea I would not describe as "flavorful" the way gyokuro is. It is serene, restrained.

Generally speaking, I feel sencha has aromatic similarities to conifer trees, where gyokuro is closer to roasted garden greens, and to the extent this makes sense, it is true of this sencha as well. The few more expensive senchas I have purchased have been clean, devoid of excess, often emphasizing aftertaste : I have never felt sencha becomes similar to gyokuro as you climb up the price ladder. This being said, I am a newbie and have tasted way fewer senchas and gyokuros than most members here, this is just a beginner expressing perceptions following a limited experience.

When I realized I actually preferred this tea at only 2g per 100ml, it turned out not to be that expensive actually. Comparing to senchas I purchased from O-Cha for instance, for which I used two or three times as much leaf, it probably was no higher in terms of cost per cup.